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Ch 11 - 1111(b) election
Hi Link:
Would you please share the list of books?
Thanks.
Catherine Christiansen
________________________________
To: "cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 8:29 PM
Subject: RE: [cdcbaa] Ch 11 - 1111(b) election
Hi Dennis,
Last night I ordered 1) EZ Rules For The Bankruptcy Code; 2) Bankruptcy and Debtor/Creditor; 3) 2011 Collier Portable Pamphlet; and 4) Bankruptcyurces list from the bankruptcy specialization presentation held a few months ago. I wasnt able to find the AWHFY or the California Practice Guide: Bankruptcy by Judge Ahart.
Thank you,
Link Schrader, Attorney
Law Office of Link W. Schrader
From:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dennis McGoldrick
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 6:36 PM
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Ch 11 - 1111(b) election
Link:
buy a book the article Mark cites gives some info, but leaves out how much you have to pay and why a creditor may want to keep it's entire lien.Under 1111(b), a partially secured creditor may elect to be considered a full recourse creditor, i.e. may demand full payment (both the securedand unsecuredclaim have to be piad in full, but can be paid without interest).. Section 1129(a)(7)(B), though, requires the full present value of the secured claim to be paid.. Say for example there is a second trust deed which is in the amount of $50,000.00, but is partially unsecured, making the lien $10,000 secured and $40,000 unsecured.
How much does your super 13 debtor have to pay this second? $50,000, but it can be paid in installments over the term of the plan without interest.
If however, the secured portion is $45,000.00 of the $50,000.00 owed, the present value of $45,000 would exceed $50,0000, if paid over time. So, counsel must calculate both tests and either (a) pay the creditor the full recourse amount when the present value is less than the full recourse amount, or (b) pay the present value of the allowed secured claim, when the present value is greater then the gross amount of the claim."
ok, so in a math formula is sc secured claim1, pay sc/pt if > pv, or
2, pay pv over pt if > result from 1 (pv requires ammortization over pt, not just a straight division problem)
________________________________
re
If you want more, go read the article published by Ken Klee, with a title something like: Eveything you want to know about 1111b, but were afraid to ask.
dennis
From:Link W. Schrader
To: "cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 9:05 PM
Subject: [cdcbaa] Ch 11 - 1111(b) election
Can anyone refer me to a case or resource to better understand an 1111(b) election in a Chapter 11 case? I see one coming and need to prepare. Thank you,
Link W. Schrader, Attorney
lschrader@schrader-law.com
Mail: PO Box 3723, Tustin, CA 92781
Office: 106 W 4th St, #308, Santa Ana, CA 92701
Orange County: (714) 542-5922
Los Angeles: (310) 413-6924 *
San Diego: (619) 952-8342
Facsimile: (310) 878-4158
* Texts received at LA number only
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
California Practice Guides are available
From your Rutter rep. They keep asking me if I need additional titles for half off.
Desiree Causey
714-375-6663
Sent from my iPhone
On May 21, 2012, at 8:29 PM, "Link W. Schrader" wrote:
> Hi Dennis,
>
>
>
> Last night I ordered 1) EZ Rules For The Bankruptcy Code; 2) Bankruptcy and Debtor/Creditor; 3) 2011 Collier Portable Pamphlet; and 4) Bankruptcy Questions and Answers. This is 4 of the 6 books on the study resources list from the bankruptcy specialization presentation held a few months ago. I wasnt able to find the AWHFY or the California Practice Guide: Bankruptcy by Judge Ahart.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
>
>
> Link Schrader, Attorney
>
> Law Office of Link W. Schrader
>
>
>
Dennis McGoldrick
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 6:36 PM
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Ch 11 - 1111(b) election
>
>
>
>
>
> Link:
>
>
>
> buy a book the article Mark cites gives some info, but leaves out how much you have to pay and why a creditor may want to keep it's entire lien.
>
>
>
> Under 1111(b), a partially secured creditor may elect to be considered a full recourse creditor, i.e. may demand full payment (both the secured and unsecured claim have to be piad in full, but can be paid without interest).. Section 1129(a)(7)(B), though, requires the full present value of the secured claim to be paid.. Say for example there is a second trust deed which is in the amount of $50,000.00, but is partially unsecured, making the lien $10,000 secured and $40,000 unsecured.
>
> How much does your super 13 debtor have to pay this second? $50,000, but it can be paid in installments over the term of the plan without interest.
>
> If however, the secured portion is $45,000.00 of the $50,000.00 owed, the present value of $45,000 would exceed $50,0000, if paid over time. So, counsel must calculate both tests and either (a) pay the creditor the full recourse amount when the present value is less than the full recourse amount, or (b) pay the present value of the allowed secured claim, when the present value is greater then the gross amount of the claim."
>
>
>
> ok, so in a math formula is sc secured claim pt plan term pv present value
>
>
>
> 1, pay sc/pt if > pv, or
>
> 2, pay pv over pt if > result from 1 (pv requires ammortization over pt, not just a straight division problem)
>
> re
>
> If you want more, go read the article published by Ken Klee, with a title something like: Eveything you want to know about 1111b, but were afraid to ask.
>
>
>
> dennis
>
>
>
> To: "cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com"
> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 9:05 PM
> Subject: [cdcbaa] Ch 11 - 1111(b) election
>
>
>
>
>
> Can anyone refer me to a case or resource to better understand an 1111(b) election in a Chapter 11 case? I see one coming and need to prepare. Thank you,
>
> Link W. Schrader, Attorney
> lschrader@schrader-law.com
> Mail: PO Box 3723, Tustin, CA 92781
> Office: 106 W 4th St, #308, Santa Ana, CA 92701
>
> Orange County: (714) 542-5922
> Los Angeles: (310) 413-6924 *
> San Diego: (619) 952-8342
> Facsimile: (310) 878-4158
> * Texts received at LA number only
>
>
>
>
>
California Practice Guides are availableFrom your Rutter rep. They keep asking me if I need additional titles for half off. Desiree Causey714-375-6663Sent from my iPhoneOn May 21, 2012, at 8:29 PM, "Link W. Schrader" <lschrader@schrader-law.com> wrote:
Last night I ordered 1) EZ Rules For The Bankruptcy Code; 2) Bankruptcy and Debtor/Creditor; 3) 2011 Collier Portable Pamphlet; and 4) Bankruptcy Questions and Answers. This is 4 of the 6 books on the study resources list from the bankruptcy specialization presentation held a few months ago. I wasnt able to find the AWHFY or the California Practice Guide: Bankruptcy by Judge Ahart. Thank you, Link Schrader, AttorneyLaw Office of Link W. Schrader cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dennis McGoldrickSent: Monday, May 21, 2012 6:36 PMTo: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [cdcbaa] Ch 11 - 1111(b) election buy a book the article Mark cites gives some info, but leaves out how much you have to pay and why a creditor may want to keep it's entire lien. Under 1111(b), a partially secured creditor may elect to be considered a full recourse creditor, i.e. may demand full payment (both the secured and unsecured claim have to be piad in full, but can be paid without interest).. Section 1129(a)(7)(B), though, requires the full present value of the secured claim to be paid.. Say for example there is a second trust deed which is in the amount of $50,000.00, but is partially unsecured, making the lien $10,000 secured and $40,000 unsecured. How much does your super 13 debtor have to pay this second? $50,000, but it can be paid in installments over the term of the plan without interest.If however, the secured portion is $45,000.00 of the $50,000.00 owed, the present value of $45,000 would exceed $50,0000, if paid over time. So, counsel must calculate both tests and either (a) pay the creditor the full recourse amount when the present value is less than the full recourse amount, or (b) pay the present value of the allowed secured claim, when the present value is greater then the gross amount of the claim."
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Regarding this statement:
*If however, the secured portion is $45,000.00 of the $50,000.00 owed, the
present value of $45,000 would exceed $50,0000, if paid over time.*
If collateral has a present value of $45,000, the present value is, by
definition, $45,000. What will exceed $45,000 is the sum of the stream of
payments the Debtor has to make in the future when interest is paid.
The formula does seem correct, though. However, to make it clearer while
retaining the same terms, I would state it as:
1: pay sc/pt iff sc/pt > pv, or
2: pay pv over pt iff pv over pt > result from 1 above
IMHO
Giovanni Orantes, Esq.
Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 1980
Los Angeles, CA 90010
Tel: (213) 389-4362
Fax: (877) 789-5776
e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
website: www.gobklaw.com
WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
Regarding this statement:If however, the secured portion is $45,000.00 of the $50,000.00 owed, the present value of $45,000 would exceed $50,0000, if paid over time.
If collateral has a present value of $45,000, the present value is, by definition, $45,000. What will exceed $45,000 is the sum of the stream of payments the Debtor has to make in the future when interest is paid.
The formula does seem correct, though. However, to make it clearer while retaining the same terms, I would state it as:1: pay sc/pt iff sc/pt > pv, or 2: pay pv over pt iff pv over pt > result from 1 above
IMHO-- Giovanni Orantes, Esq. Orantes Law Firm, P.C.3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 1980Los Angeles, CA 90010Tel: (213) 389-4362Fax: (877) 789-5776e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
website: www.gobklaw.comWE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Link:
buy a book the article Mark cites gives some info, but leaves out how much you have to pay and why a creditor may want to keep it's entire lien.Under 1111(b), a partially secured creditor
may elect to be considered a full recourse creditor,
i.e. may demand full payment (both the securedand unsecuredclaim have to be piad in full, but can be paid without interest).. Section
1129(a)(7)(B), though, requires the full present value of the secured claim to be paid.. Say for example there is a second trust deed which is in the amount of
$50,000.00, but is partially unsecured, making the lien $10,000 secured and
$40,000 unsecured.
How
much does your super 13 debtor have to pay this second? $50,000, but it can be
paid in installments over the term of the plan without interest.
If
however, the secured portion is $45,000.00 of the $50,000.00 owed, the present
value of $45,000 would exceed $50,0000, if paid over time. So, counsel must calculate both tests and
either (a) pay the creditor the full recourse amount when the present value is
less than the full recourse amount, or (b) pay the present value of the allowed
secured claim, when the present value is greater then the gross amount of the
claim."
ok, so in a math formula is sc secured claim1, pay sc/pt if > pv, or
2, pay pv over pt if > result from 1 (pv requires ammortization over pt, not just a straight division problem)
________________________________
re
If you want more, go read the article published by Ken Klee, with a title something like: Eveything you want to know about 1111b, but were afraid to ask.
dennis
________________________________
To: "cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 9:05 PM
Subject: [cdcbaa] Ch 11 - 1111(b) election
Can anyone refer me to a case or resource to better understand an 1111(b) election in a Chapter 11 case? I see one coming and need to prepare. Thank you,
Link W. Schrader, Attorney
lschrader@schrader-law.com
Mail: PO Box 3723, Tustin, CA 92781
Office: 106 W 4th St, #308, Santa Ana, CA 92701
Orange County: (714) 542-5922
Los Angeles: (310) 413-6924 *
San Diego: (619) 952-8342
Facsimile: (310) 878-4158
* Texts received at LA number only
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Attached is an interesting little article that summarizes 1111(b)
in easy-to-understand terms. Might be helpful as a start.
*************************
Mark J. Markus
Law Office of Mark J. Markus
11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
Studio City, CA 91604-2652
(818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
web: http://www.bklaw.com/
This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency (see what this
means at
The post was migrated from Yahoo.