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Principal Place of Business of Individual
Gio: u r right. Venue is not reflected on the forms. Regardles, we must file in the location most advantageous to our clients. Good work.
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 16, 2012, at 7:56 PM, Giovanni Orantes wrote:
> I had an hour-long argument today with Judge Klein because, among other things, I filed a Chapter 13 in Los Angeles, where the Debtor has title to his property with the highest value, instead of in Riverside, which is where his case would be filed if based on where he lives. Her position was that my client was dishonest because in the "address" box of the petition firm, he wrote the Los Angeles address even though his principal residence is in San Bernardino. She added that to other factors to find bad faith as dozens of attorneys who were waiting for us to finish will attest, even though I told the Judge that I had to put the address of his L.A. property in the "address" box for ecf to file it in Los Angeles, but nobody ever said that that was his principal residence, which everything else I filed said was in San Bernardino.
>
> Exactly one week ago, I also got in trouble with Judge Zurzolo because I used the debtor's new rental address in the S.F. Valley in a second 11 and was assigned to a Valley judge. I explained to him that the attorney for the bank was making the above argument, too (that the "address" in the petition means the debtor's "principal residence") and that I, therefore, would have given her more fodder to attack me and would have basically had to lie if I had listed the address of one of the debtor's L.A. properties in that box. Unlike Judge Klein, Judge Zurzolo agreed with me and dissolved the OSC he had set lamenting that there is no place on the petition where I could have explained what happened.
>
> I give you the above anecdotes for your information only. In many other cases, I haven't had any problem.
>
>
> --
> Giovanni Orantes, Esq.
> Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
> 3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 1980
> Los Angeles, CA 90010
> Tel: (213) 389-4362
> Fax: (877) 789-5776
> e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
> website: www.gobklaw.com
>
>
Gio: u r right. Venue is not reflected on the forms. Regardles, we must file in the location most advantageous to our clients. Good work. Sent from my iPhoneOn Feb 16, 2012, at 7:56 PM, Giovanni Orantes <
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
I have dealt with the same issue when filing bankruptcy cases for
debtors living in a foreign country. ECF, at least initially, could
not handle the listing of a foreign address on page 1 of the
petition (I went around with the OUST on that and got them to back
down). As far as the clerk's office goes, their heads start to spin
and throw out pea soup.
Assuming the requirements of 11 U.S.C. 109 are met, it's absolutely
clear that a debtor can file a bankruptcy while living in a foreign
country, but you pretty much have to put a false address on page 1
of the petition somewhere in the USA (and preferably in the
jurisdiction where your case is being filed, but it's technically
the location of assets in the USA that governs...and that could be
in a bank account...)
On top of all of that, the form says "street address of debtor", not
"street address where debtor resides," or, "street address of
debtor's principal assets" or, "street address of debtor's principal
residence". It is vague on its face.
I agree, the forms are defective in this regard and both the
judiciary and clerk's office staff are woefully uninformed on the topic.
*************************
Mark J. Markus
Law Office of Mark J. Markus
11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
Studio City, CA 91604-2652
(818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
web: http://www.bklaw.com/
This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency (see what this
means at
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
I had an hour-long argument today with Judge Klein because, among
other things, I filed a Chapter 13 in Los Angeles, where the Debtor has
title to his property with the highest value, instead of in Riverside,
which is where his case would be filed if based on where he lives. Her
position was that my client was dishonest because in the "address" box of
the petition firm, he wrote the Los Angeles address even though his
principal residence is in San Bernardino. She added that to other factors
to find bad faith as dozens of attorneys who were waiting for us to finish
will attest, even though I told the Judge that I had to put the address of
his L.A. property in the "address" box for ecf to file it in Los Angeles,
but nobody ever said that that was his principal residence, which
everything else I filed said was in San Bernardino.
Exactly one week ago, I also got in trouble with Judge Zurzolo because
I used the debtor's new rental address in the S.F. Valley in a second 11
and was assigned to a Valley judge. I explained to him that the attorney
for the bank was making the above argument, too (that the "address" in the
petition means the debtor's "principal residence") and that I, therefore,
would have given her more fodder to attack me and would have basically had
to lie if I had listed the address of one of the debtor's L.A. properties
in that box. Unlike Judge Klein, Judge Zurzolo agreed with me and
dissolved the OSC he had set lamenting that there is no place on the
petition where I could have explained what happened.
I give you the above anecdotes for your information only. In many other
cases, I haven't had any problem.
Giovanni Orantes, Esq.
Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 1980
Los Angeles, CA 90010
Tel: (213) 389-4362
Fax: (877) 789-5776
e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
website: www.gobklaw.com
I had an hour-long argument today withJudge Kleinbecause, among otherthings,I filed a Chapter 13 in Los Angeles, where the Debtor has title to his property with the highest value, instead of in Riverside, which is where his case wouldbe filed if based on wherehe lives. Her position was that my client was dishonest because in the "address" box of the petition firm, he wrote the Los Angeles address even though his principal residence is in San Bernardino. She added that to other factors to find bad faith as dozens of attorneys who were waiting for us to finish will attest, even though I told the Judge that I had to put the address of his L.A. property in the "address" box for ecf to file it in Los Angeles, but nobody ever said that that was hisprincipalresidence, which everythingelse I filed said was in San Bernardino.
Exactly one week ago, I also got in trouble with Judge Zurzolo because Iused the debtor's new rental address in the S.F. Valley in a second 11 and was assigned toa Valley judge. I explained to him that the attorney for the bank was making the above argument, too (that the "address" in the petition means the debtor's "principal residence") and thatI, therefore, would havegiven her more fodder to attack me and would have basically had to lie if I had listed the address of one of thedebtor's L.A.properties in that box. Unlike Judge Klein, Judge Zurzolo agreed with me and dissolved the OSC he had set lamenting that there is no place on the petition where I could have explained what happened.
I give you the above anecdotes for your information only. In many other cases, I haven't had any problem.-- Giovanni Orantes, Esq. Orantes Law Firm, P.C.3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 1980
Los Angeles, CA 90010Tel: (213) 389-4362Fax: (877) 789-5776e-mail: go@gobklaw.comwebsite: www.gobklaw.com
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Taking this a little further, does anyone have any thoughts on this scenario?:
Debtor owns a residence in San Bernardino County with $0 equity. Works, banks and spends most of her time in LA County. Principal assets (consisting of a bank account and vehicle) would be present in Los Angeles County as of petition date--arguably the residence should not count as a "principal asset" because it has no equity. I am thinking of filing the case in LA County, after warning client that the case could be moved to the Riverside division if there is an objection. Does anyone think this would be improper?
>
> Thanks Markus, that's how I read it too. Glad to hear that I can do this!
>
> John D. Faucher
> Hurlbett & Faucher, LLP
>
>
> On 1/23/12 5:30 PM, "Mark J. Markus" wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 28 usc 1408 is disjunctive, so you can file in any of those places provided
> > they were within the 180 days prior to filing the petition. So yes, he can
> > file in Santa Barbara.
> >
> > Also, remember that venue is not jurisdictional, so the worst case scenario
> > is that IF someone objects, it would simply get moved to a different court.
> > And I've NEVER seen anyone object.
> >
> >
> >
> > *************************
> > Mark J. Markus
> > Law Office of Mark J. Markus
> > 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
> > Studio City, CA 91604-2652
> > (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
> > web: http://www.bklaw.com/
> > This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency (see what this means at
> > http://bklaw.com/bankruptcy-blog/2008/0 ... efinition/)
> > ________________________________________________
> > NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of
> > Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use
> > of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure,
> > copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
> > IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by
> > the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this
> > communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used,
> > and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the
> > Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another
> > party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication.
> >
> > On 1/23/2012 5:23 PM, John D. Faucher wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hello Listers:
> >>
> >> Client works half-time in Santa Barbara, half in Oakland. He maintains no
> >> residence in Santa Barbara, but maintains an apartment in Tiburon, Marin
> >> County. When in Santa Barbara, he stays with a girlfriend or in a hotel.
> >>
> >> His work is at a medical practice he owns. He spends a week at a time in
> >> each of two locations. The principal place of the practice is in Santa
> >> Barbara; Oakland is a smaller, newer office.
> >>
> >> Under 28 usc 1408, may he file his petition in Santa Barbara by claiming
> >> that it is both the principal place of business and the location of his
> >> principal assets? Or is he required to file in Marin County, where he has
> >> his only fixed residence?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> John D. Faucher
> >>
> >> Hurlbett & Faucher, LLP
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 5743 Corsa Ave., Suite 208
> >>
> >> Westlake Village, CA 91362
> >>
> >> (818) 889-8080
> >>
> >> Fax: (805) 367-4154
> >>
> >> http://www.hurlbettfaucher.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 3324 State Street, Suite O
> >>
> >> Santa Barbara, CA 93105
> >>
> >> (805) 963-9111
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> This electronic mail message and any attached files are confidential,
> >> contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or
> >> entity to whom it is addressed, and may be legally privileged. If you are
> >> not the intended recipient, please immediately reply to John Faucher (at
> >> 818/889-8080 or john@... ) indicating
> >> that you received this message and then delete the message without delay.
> >> Thank you for your cooperation.
> >>
> >> Disclosure Under U.S. IRS Circular 230: The recipient may not use any tax
> >> advice contained in this communication, including any attachments, for the
> >> purpose of avoiding federal tax related penalties or promoting, marketing or
> >> recommending to another party any particular transaction or matter.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
charset="ISO-8859-1"
Thanks Markus, that's how I read it too. Glad to hear that I can do this!
John D. Faucher
Hurlbett & Faucher, LLP
On 1/23/12 5:30 PM, "Mark J. Markus" wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> 28 usc 1408 is disjunctive, so you can file in any of those places provided
> they were within the 180 days prior to filing the petition. So yes, he can
> file in Santa Barbara.
>
> Also, remember that venue is not jurisdictional, so the worst case scenario
> is that IF someone objects, it would simply get moved to a different court.
> And I've NEVER seen anyone object.
>
>
>
> *************************
> Mark J. Markus
> Law Office of Mark J. Markus
> 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
> Studio City, CA 91604-2652
> (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
> web: http://www.bklaw.com/
> This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency (see what this means at
> http://bklaw.com/bankruptcy-blog/2008/0 ... efinition/)
> ________________________________________________
> NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of
> Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use
> of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure,
> copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
> IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by
> the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this
> communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used,
> and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the
> Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another
> party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication.
>
> On 1/23/2012 5:23 PM, John D. Faucher wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello Listers:
>>
>> Client works half-time in Santa Barbara, half in Oakland. He maintains no
>> residence in Santa Barbara, but maintains an apartment in Tiburon, Marin
>> County. When in Santa Barbara, he stays with a girlfriend or in a hotel.
>>
>> His work is at a medical practice he owns. He spends a week at a time in
>> each of two locations. The principal place of the practice is in Santa
>> Barbara; Oakland is a smaller, newer office.
>>
>> Under 28 usc 1408, may he file his petition in Santa Barbara by claiming
>> that it is both the principal place of business and the location of his
>> principal assets? Or is he required to file in Marin County, where he has
>> his only fixed residence?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> John D. Faucher
>>
>> Hurlbett & Faucher, LLP
>>
>>
>>
>> 5743 Corsa Ave., Suite 208
>>
>> Westlake Village, CA 91362
>>
>> (818) 889-8080
>>
>> Fax: (805) 367-4154
>>
>> http://www.hurlbettfaucher.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 3324 State Street, Suite O
>>
>> Santa Barbara, CA 93105
>>
>> (805) 963-9111
>>
>>
>>
>> This electronic mail message and any attached files are confidential,
>> contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or
>> entity to whom it is addressed, and may be legally privileged. If you are
>> not the intended recipient, please immediately reply to John Faucher (at
>> 818/889-8080 or john@hf-bklaw.com ) indicating
>> that you received this message and then delete the message without delay.
>> Thank you for your cooperation.
>>
>> Disclosure Under U.S. IRS Circular 230: The recipient may not use any tax
>> advice contained in this communication, including any attachments, for the
>> purpose of avoiding federal tax related penalties or promoting, marketing or
>> recommending to another party any particular transaction or matter.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
charset="ISO-8859-1"
Thanks Markus, that's how I read it too. Glad to hear that I can do this!
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
28 usc 1408 is disjunctive, so you can file in any of those places
provided they were within the 180 days prior to filing the
petition. So yes, he can file in Santa Barbara.
Also, remember that venue is not jurisdictional, so the worst case
scenario is that IF someone objects, it would simply get moved to a
different court. And I've NEVER seen anyone object.
*************************
Mark J. Markus
Law Office of Mark J. Markus
11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
Studio City, CA 91604-2652
(818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
web: http://www.bklaw.com/
This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency (see what this
means at
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
charset="US-ASCII"
Hello Listers:
Client works half-time in Santa Barbara, half in Oakland. He maintains no
residence in Santa Barbara, but maintains an apartment in Tiburon, Marin
County. When in Santa Barbara, he stays with a girlfriend or in a hotel.
His work is at a medical practice he owns. He spends a week at a time in
each of two locations. The principal place of the practice is in Santa
Barbara; Oakland is a smaller, newer office.
Under 28 usc 1408, may he file his petition in Santa Barbara by claiming
that it is both the principal place of business and the location of his
principal assets? Or is he required to file in Marin County, where he has
his only fixed residence?
John D. Faucher
Hurlbett & Faucher, LLP
5743 Corsa Ave., Suite 208
Westlake Village, CA 91362
(818) 889-8080
Fax: (805) 367-4154
http://www.hurlbettfaucher.com/
3324 State Street, Suite O
Santa Barbara, CA 93105
(805) 963-9111
This electronic mail message and any attached files are confidential,
contain information intended for the exclusive use of the individual or
entity to whom it is addressed, and may be legally privileged. If you are
not the intended recipient, please immediately reply to John Faucher (at
818/889-8080 or john@hf-bklaw.com )
indicating that you received this message and then delete the message
without delay. Thank you for your cooperation.
Disclosure Under U.S. IRS Circular 230: The recipient may not use any tax
advice contained in this communication, including any attachments, for the
purpose of avoiding federal tax related penalties or promoting, marketing or
recommending to another party any particular transaction or matter.
charset="US-ASCII"
Hello Listers: Client works half-time in Santa Barbara, half in Oakland. He maintains no residence in Santa Barbara, but maintains an apartment in Tiburon, Marin County. When in Santa Barbara, he stays with a girlfriend or in a hotel. His work is at a medical practice he owns. He spends a week at a time in each of two locations. The principal place of the practice is in Santa Barbara; Oakland is a smaller, newer office. Under 28 usc 1408, may he file his petition in Santa Barbara by claiming that it is both the principal place of business and the location of his principal assets? Or is he required to file in Marin County, where he has his only fixed residence?
The post was migrated from Yahoo.