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Tax Question
charset="windows-1251"
EDD yes for trust fund. SBE occasionally.
David A. Tilem
Certified Bankruptcy Specialist*
Law Offices of David A. Tilem (a debt relief agency)
206 N. Jackson Street, #201, Glendale, CA 91206
Tel: 818-507-6000 Fax: 818-507-6800
* Bankruptcy specialist cert. by State Bar of CA Bd of Legal
Specialization.
Andrew Goodman
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 1:01 PM
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [cdcbaa] Tax Question
Can the State Board or EDD pursue sole member of an LLC for taxes owed by
the LLC if the sole member files a Chapter 7??
NOTE NEW ADDRESS & PHONE NUMBERS
Andrew Goodman
GOODMAN FAITH, LLP
21550 Oxnard Street, Suite 830
Woodland Hills, CA. 91367
818-887-52500
818-887-25091-fax
andyg1207@yahoo. com
charset="windows-1251"
Message
EDD yes for trustfund. SBE occasionally.
David A.
Tilem
Certified Bankruptcy
Specialist*
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Thanks - I'm getting the specifics from the client.
________________________________
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, June 4, 2010 1:47:09 PM
Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Tax Question
Hello Andy -
I echo Dennis, with an added request for clarification. Which state board are you referring to Franchise Tax Board or Board of Equalization? What kind of taxes are we talking about? The sole member of the LLC wont be liable for the LLCs income tax unless theres blatant alter ego issues. If its payroll tax that isnt withheld, then the LLCs bankruptcy does nothing to wipe out the members liability. My limited experience with sales tax suggests, as Dennis mentions, that its the hardest to deal with.
- John D. Faucher
On 6/4/10 1:12 PM, "Dennis McGoldrick" wrote:
>
>
>
>
>Andrew:
>
>Taxes are tricky. They are catagorized regarding dischargeability by the type of tax.
>
>If you are thinking about sales taxes, more difficult.
>Sales tax is an excise tax. But if the LLC, under the control of the sole human, collected the sales tax and converted the tax. This is no longer just a tax issue, but a theft, call your criminal lawyer, issue.
>
>Stealing is not dischargeable.
>
>dennis
>
>--- On Fri, 6/4/10, Andrew Goodman wrote:
>
>
>>Subject: [cdcbaa] Tax Question
>>To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups. com
>>Date: Friday, June 4, 2010, 1:00 PM
>>
>>
>>Can the State Board or EDD pursue sole member of an LLC for taxes owed by the LLC if the sole member files a Chapter 7??
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
- John D. Faucher
>>>
Thanks - I'm getting the specifics from the client.
From: John Faucher <j.d.faucher@sbcglobal.net>To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.comSent: Fri, June 4, 2010 1:47:09 PMSubject: Re: [cdcbaa] Tax Question
Hello Andy -I echo Dennis, with an added request for clarification. Which state board are you referring to Franchise Tax Board or Board of Equalization? What kind of taxes are we talking about? The sole member of the LLC wont be liable for the LLCs income tax unless theres blatant alter ego issues. If its payroll tax that isnt withheld, then the LLCs bankruptcy does nothing to wipe out the members liability. My limited experience with sales tax suggests, as Dennis mentions, that its the hardest to deal with. - John D. FaucherOn 6/4/10 1:12 PM, "Dennis McGoldrick" <easky1@yahoo. com> wrote:
Andrew: Taxes are tricky. They are catagorized regarding dischargeability by the type of tax. If you are thinking about sales taxes, more difficult.Sales tax is an excise tax. But if the LLC, under the control of the sole human, collected the sales tax and converted the tax. This is no longer just a tax issue, but a theft, call your criminal lawyer, issue. Stealing is not dischargeable. dennis--- On Fri, 6/4/10, Andrew Goodman <andyg1207@yahoo. com> wrote:
From: Andrew Goodman <andyg1207@yahoo. com>Subject: [cdcbaa] Tax QuestionTo: cdcbaa@yahoogroups. comDate: Friday, June 4, 2010, 1:00 PM Can the State Board or EDD pursue sole member of an LLC for taxes owed by the LLC if the sole member files a Chapter 7??&
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
charset="ISO-8859-1"
Hello Andy -
I echo Dennis, with an added request for clarification. Which state board
are you referring to Franchise Tax Board or Board of Equalization? What
kind of taxes are we talking about? The sole member of the LLC wont be
liable for the LLCs income tax unless theres blatant alter ego issues. If
its payroll tax that isnt withheld, then the LLCs bankruptcy does nothing
to wipe out the members liability. My limited experience with sales tax
suggests, as Dennis mentions, that its the hardest to deal with.
- John D. Faucher
On 6/4/10 1:12 PM, "Dennis McGoldrick" wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Andrew:
>
> Taxes are tricky. They are catagorized regarding dischargeability by the type
> of tax.
>
> If you are thinking about sales taxes, more difficult.
> Sales tax is an excise tax. But if the LLC, under the control of the sole
> human, collected the sales tax and converted the tax. This is no longer just
> a tax issue, but a theft, call your criminal lawyer, issue.
>
> Stealing is not dischargeable.
>
> dennis
>
> --- On Fri, 6/4/10, Andrew Goodman wrote:
>>
>> Subject: [cdcbaa] Tax Question
>> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Friday, June 4, 2010, 1:00 PM
>>
>>
>> Can the State Board or EDD pursue sole member of an LLC for taxes owed by the
>> LLC if the sole member files a Chapter 7??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>> - John D. Faucher
charset="ISO-8859-1"
Re: [cdcbaa] Tax Question
Hello Andy -
I echo Dennis, with an added request for clarification. Which state board are you referring to – Franchise Tax Board or Board of Equalization? What kind of taxes are we talking about? The sole member o
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Andrew:
Taxes are tricky. They are catagorized regarding dischargeability by the type of tax.
If you are thinking about sales taxes, more difficult.
Sales tax is an excise tax. But if the LLC, under the control of the sole human, collected the sales tax and converted the tax. This is no longer just a tax issue, but a theft, call your criminal lawyer, issue.
Stealing is not dischargeable.
dennis
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Can the State Board or EDD pursue sole member of an LLC for taxes owed by the LLC if the sole member files a Chapter 7??
NOTE NEW ADDRESS & PHONE NUMBERS
Andrew Goodman
GOODMAN FAITH, LLP
21550 Oxnard Street, Suite 830
Woodland Hills, CA. 91367
818-887-52500
818-887-25091-fax
andyg1207@yahoo.com
Can the State Board or EDD pursue sole member of an LLC for taxes owed by the LLC if the sole member files a Chapter 7??NOTE NEW ADDRESS & PHONE NUMBERS
Andrew GoodmanGOODMAN FAITH, LLP21550 Oxnard Street, Suite 830
Woodland Hills, CA. 91367
818-887-52500
818-887-25091-fax
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Dear Robert,
I think you might be misreading the Code.
A discharge under 1328(a) does not discharge debts provided for in the plan that fall under the restrictions in 1328(a)(1), (2), (3), and (4), some of which involve taxes and debts to governmental units (in particular, cp. 507(a)(8)(C) and 523 (a)(1)(B) and (C), all referred to in
In a discharge under 1328(b), 1328(c) (the subsection that limits the scope of the 1328(b) hardship discharge) states that a discharge under 1328 (b) does not include "any debt - . . . of a kind specified in section 523(a) of this title." Thus, while 1328(b)(2) does not refer to
As for the discharge of interest on a tax debt - half of the focus of the original question - in Miller v. United States, 363 F.3d 999 (9th Cir. 2004) (a personal Chapter 11 case, so 1141(d)(2)'s reference to 523(a) was implicated) the Ninth Circuit held that postpetition interest on a tax debt was excepted from discharge under 523(a)(1)(A), and would therefore be non-dischargeable under either 727 of 1328(b). See also Ward v. Bd. of Equalization of Cal. (In re Artisan Woodworkers), 204 F.3d 888 (9th Cir. 2000) (postpetition interest on nondischargeable tax debt under 523 (a)(1)(A) was nondischargeable).
Finally, you may find it helpful to read Peter Lively's post of January 27, in which he provides a detailed analysis on the question of the discharge of tax penalties. My one addition to his discussion is: In a 1328(b) discharge - unlike a 1328(a) discharge - since all of the exceptions of 523(a) apply (and in particular, 523(a)(1)(A)), it follows that all of 507(a)(8) applies. Thus, 507(a)(8)(G)'s tax penalties would not be dischargeable under 1328(b). However, as Peter argued, they probably would be discharged under 1328(a); meaning that the Debtor would have to successfully complete the plan to discharge the tax penalties.
Peter also took the position that tax interest is inextricably tied to the underlying tax, so if the tax itself is nondischargeable, then the interest is too. The cases cited above dealt with postpetition, as opposed to prepetition, interest. While I agree that prepetition interest is part and parcel with the scheduled tax debt, postpetition tax interest may be dischargeable under 1328(a) - though as the cases establish, since it is excluded under 523(a)(1)(A) it is most definitely not dischargeable under 1328(b).
Best regards,
Nick
Nicholas Gebelt, Ph.D., J.D.
Law Offices of Nicholas Gebelt
15150 Hornell Street
Whittier, CA 90604
Phone: 562.777.9159
FAX: 562.946.1365
Email: ngebelt@goodbye2debt.com
Web: www.goodbye2debt.com
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----- Original Message -----
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Robert90701@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Tax Question
Dear Jeff:
1328(a) discharges all debts provided for by the plan and
1328(b)(2) which covers exceptions specifically omits references to 523(a)(7) which
concerns fines and penalties to a government unit so they are probably dischargeable.
There is an old case that may be applicable indirectly.
Each penalty needs to be analyzed and may be dischargeable depending on how they
are classified such as nonpecuniary or not,
Interest is a whole other thing and since it is pecuniary in nature, it is probably
not dischargeable.
No definite answer can be reached without research, shepardizing, etc.
and even then there are no guarantees.
Good Luck starts with a strategy and a plan. Form a strategic alliance with
Robert J. Suhajda, MS,CPA
17721 Norwalk Blvd. #43
Artesia, CA 90701
562-924-8922
Income Tax for Attorneys, Bankruptcy, IRS representation,
Fiduciary income tax returns, Estate and Gift tax returns,
Trust Protector, Independent Trustee, Court Accountings
In a message dated 1/5/2010 3:43:17 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, jsmith@cgsattys.com writes:
Does the general Rule that "if the taxes are not dischargeable then the penalties and interest are not dischargeable" have any exceptions? A little voice in my head is buzzing around that there is some wiggle room in a Chapter 13 or a Chapter 11 that the penalties and/or interest may be discharged in certain circumstances.
Or is that buzzing just the hangover from New Years?
Jeff Smith
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
X-eGroups-Edited-By: easky1
Dear Jeff:
No the question is causing the buzzing in your head.
1328(a) discharges all debts provided for by the plan and
1328(b)(2) which covers exceptions specifically omits references to
523(a)(7) which
concerns fines and penalties to a government unit so they are probably
dischargeable.
There is an old case that may be applicable indirectly.
Each penalty needs to be analyzed and may be dischargeable depending on
how they
are classified such as nonpecuniary or not,
Interest is a whole other thing and since it is pecuniary in nature, it is probably
not dischargeable.
No definite answer can be reached without research, shepardizing, etc.
and even then there are no guarantees.
Good Luck starts with a strategy and a plan. Form a strategic alliance
with
Robert J. Suhajda, MS,CPA
17721 Norwalk Blvd. #43
Artesia, CA 90701
562-924-8922
Income Tax for Attorneys, Bankruptcy, IRS representation,
Fiduciary income tax returns, Estate and Gift tax returns,
Trust Protector, Independent Trustee, Court Accountings
In a message dated 1/5/2010 3:43:17 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
jsmith@cgsattys.com writes:
Does the general Rule that "if the taxes are not dischargeable then the penalties and interest are not dischargeable" have any exceptions? A littlevoice in my head is buzzing around that there is some wiggle room in a
Chapter 13 or a Chapter 11 that the penalties and/or interest may be discharged
in certain circumstances.
Or is that buzzing just the hangover from New Years?
Jeff Smith
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Dear Jeff:
No the question is causing the buzzing in your head.
1328(a) discharges all debts provided for by the plan and
1328(b)(2) which covers exceptions specifically omits references to
523(a)(7) which
concerns fines and penalties to a government unit so they are probably
dischargeable.
There is an old case that may be applicable indirectly.
Each penalty needs to be analyzed and may be dischargeable depending on
how they
are classified such as nonpecuniary or not,
Interest is a whole other thing and since it is pecuniary in nature, it is probably
not dischargeable.
No definite answer can be reached without research, shepardizing, etc.
and even then there are no guarantees.
Good Luck starts with a strategy and a plan. Form a strategic alliance
with
Robert J. Suhajda, MS,CPA
17721 Norwalk Blvd. #43
Artesia, CA 90701
562-924-8922
Income Tax for Attorneys, Bankruptcy, IRS representation,
Fiduciary income tax returns, Estate and Gift tax returns,
Trust Protector, Independent Trustee, Court Accountings
In a message dated 1/5/2010 3:43:17 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
jsmith@cgsattys.com writes:
Does the general Rule that "if the taxes are not dischargeable then the penalties and interest are not dischargeable" have any exceptions? A littlevoice in my head is buzzing around that there is some wiggle room in a
Chapter 13 or a Chapter 11 that the penalties and/or interest may be discharged
in certain circumstances.
Or is that buzzing just the hangover from New Years?
Jeff Smith
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Does the general Rule that "if the taxes are not dischargeable then the penalties and interest are not dischargeable" have any exceptions? A little voice in my head is buzzing around that there is some wiggle room in a Chapter 13 or a Chapter 11 that the penalties and/or interest may be discharged in certain circumstances.
Or is that buzzing just the hangover from New Years?
Jeff Smith
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
I think FTB is bound by the plan if they were served with it and if the plan
"provided for" the FTB claim. PS we did not discuss this issue during the
session earlier today.
David A. Tilem
Certified Bankruptcy Specialist*
Law Offices of David A. Tilem (a debt relief agency)
206 N. Jackson Street, #201, Glendale, CA 91206
Tel: 818-507-6000 Fax: 818-507-6800
* Bankruptcy specialist cert. by State Bar of CA Bd of Legal
Specialization.
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
I will not be at the meeting tomorrow, but I would appreciate an answer to the following question. Debtor filed a Chapter 13 and provided for the Franchise Tax Board in the plan. Claims bar date has passed , even for the taxing authorities. FTB did not file a claim.Will their debt be discharged?
1328(a) says no, since it seems to fall under 507(a) (8) (C), but I seem to recall from some prior seminar, that the debt is" technically "discharged. I am not sure of the meaning oftechnically discharged either.
Pat Said.
I will not be at the meeting tomorrow, but I would appreciate an answer to the following question. Debtor filed a Chapter 13 and provided for the Franchise Tax Board in the plan. Claims bar date has passed , even for the taxing authorities. FTB did not file a claim. Will their debt be discharged?
1328(a) says no, since it seems to fall under 507(a) (8) (C), but I seem to recall from some prior seminar, that the debt is " technically "discharged. I am not sure of the meaning of technically discharged either.
Pat Said.
The post was migrated from Yahoo.