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Disclosure of Creditors & Client Diligence
A few thoughts on this thread:
Since
1. Bankruptcy is mandated by God through Moses every seven years (Deut. 15:1-2), and was established for our country from its legal inception (U.S. Const. art. I, 8, cl. 4); and
2. Usury is unequivocally condemned by God through Moses (Lev. 25:34-38);
as debtors' attorneys we are on the right side of the great moral divide of debtor/creditor relations, and the usurious credit card companies who prey on the American population and bleed them dry with loan shark interest rates are on the wrong side. Most (though, admittedly, not all) creditors are the bad guys, and we are the good guys.
There are countries in which one mistake will consign a person to the ash heap of history. Through bankruptcy our country gives people second chances. People who get second chances sometimes make great contributions that change our world for good. Search the internet and you will find quite a roster of famous bankrupts who have gone on to do great things.
Each of us has serious personal flaws - welcome to the human race. For some of our clients the flaw may be the inability to manage funds or keep good records. We all need compassion in dealing with our flaws. I am proud of the fact that I act as an agent for compassion for debtors who need my services, and I make no apology for what I do. I admit to occasionally being a bit frustrated with clients who fail to provide me with the documentary tools I need to help them, but I extend to them compassion and courtesy when this happens. Why? In part, because I am acutely aware of the fact that I sometimes fail others and they extend to me compassion and courtesy. If people are willing to put up with me, I am certainly willing to put up with the little frustrations associated with serving my clients. I have chosen this profession willingly. I am pleased to help my clients. Moreover, it is a 2-way street: they pay me for my services.
In fact, the only debtors I view as being sad cases are those who don't have an attorney and try to navigate the bankruptcy system without us.
On Saturday the LA Times reported that the economy lost 85,000 jobs in December 2009. If you are a bankruptcy attorney with paying clients you should not complain. You have a job that is one of the most rewarding careers available: You are helping people repair their lives and get back on their feet. Thank God for it.
My two cents.
Nick
Nicholas Gebelt, Ph.D., J.D.
Law Offices of Nicholas Gebelt
15150 Hornell Street
Whittier, CA 90604
Phone: 562.777.9159
FAX: 562.946.1365
Email: ngebelt@goodbye2debt.com
Web: www.goodbye2debt.com
Confidentiality Note: This e-mail is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or otherwise protected from disclosure. Dissemination, distribution, or copying of this e-mail or the information herein by anyone other than the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately at 562.777.9159 or e-mail info@goodbye2debt.com and destroy the original message and all copies.
Representation Note: If you have not signed a contract of representation, the Law Offices of Nicholas Gebelt do not represent you, and this email does not contain any legal advice for you.
----- Original Message -----
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 4:19 PM
Subject: [cdcbaa] Re: Disclosure of Creditors & Client Diligence
I second Dennis' advice.
We are the emergency room surgeons of the economy. We are more than mere lawyers charging fees. We are their last resort before despair takes over, many of them heading to divorce and broken families. Be kind, as some of them may be your colleagues who graduated with you from law school; having lost their job or client base to the ever changing economy. You could have been sitting on the other side of the table, and for all you know, may some day! The Mission Statement of the cdcbaa so supports this philosophy.
Some of us have been patching people up and sending them back out into the economy through the ups and downs in the economy; at least three cycles worth. When many left after the 2005 Amendments a small group of us stayed in the game, understanding that we had chosen a profession in which we help those less fortunate, and willing to mentor each other and others to be the best at what we do. Others entered into our specialty in only the last few months or couple of years when they saw an opportunity. I applaud those of you who have entered our specialty only recently. There is more to it than you probably ever dreamed.
But as Dennis said in less words... be kind in your comments about those who put food on your families' tables. They are confused, scared, rattled, emotional and in need of kindness, even when frustration takes hold of them. That is what a member of the cdcbaa does. Please support the Mission Statement of the cdcbaa.
Lou Esbin
--- In cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com, mjessee@... wrote:
>
> Sage advice!
> Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone with SprintSpeed
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 19:06:47
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Disclosure of Creditors & Client Diligence
>
> Can I humbly ask we stop trashing our very human clients?
>
> I, for one, would not want to face a malpractice suit and have such a quote paraded before a jury.
>
> Dennis McGoldrick
> 350 S. Crenshaw Bl., #A207B
> Torrance, CA 90503
>
> On Jan 8, 2010, at 6:18 PM, "Steven B. Lever" wrote:
>
> Such is the nature of the debtor beast. Were they ever so diligent there were be far less of us living off their sloth, incompetence, financial illiteracy (innumeracy?)and misfortune.
>
>
>
> Don?Tt get me wrong. I love my debtors. They are often sweet, meek creatures who will undoubtedly inherit the earth in the hereafter. Yet it is our calling and yoke to lead them to the greener pastures of debt relief.
>
>
>
> Charge for schedule amendments in your retainer as well, and shepherd your errant flock to be as accurate as they will allow the schedules to be. And meditate on the Zen koan, ?oWhen is a debt, not a debt?? Soon you will reach bankruptcy attorney nirvana when you reach realization through that koan?or you retire.
>
>
>
Of Robert Vitt
> Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 7:33 AM
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [cdcbaa] Disclosure of Creditors & Client Diligence
>
>
>
>
>
> Anyone else have this problem?
>
>
>
> A very typical scenario for me is to have clients not want to list their creditors but instead "just go by the credit report"...every time I refuse and make the clients complete their intake packet listing all creditors, property etc. My retainer states that I do not investigate the nature of their debts or creditors and I have a lot of language certifying to me that all information is true and correct and informing them of penalties for bankruptcy crimes, etc. etc. .
>
>
>
> Still, it frequently becomes an uphill battle with clients to get them to complete their intake packets to specifically list all their creditors. I explain not listing all creditors could and very likely would cost them their discharge.
>
>
>
> Anyone else have this problem? Maybe it is just the nature of the beast to have clients who do not always have a sense of follow through.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Robert S. Vitt
> VITT LAW FIRM
>
> 3200 E. Guasti Road Ste 100
> Ontario, CA 91761
> 909.275.7594 Office
> 909.275.7621 Facsimile
> www.bankrutpcy-ie.com
> www.vittlawfirm.com
>
> Any tax advice contained in the body of this e-mail was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, by the recipient for the purpose of avoiding penalties that may be imposed under the Internal Revenue Code or applicable state or local tax law provisions.
>
> Privileged And Confidential Communication.
> This electronic transmission, and any documents attached hereto, (a) are protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act (18 USC rmation, and (c) are for the sole use of the intended recipient named above. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify the sender and delete the electronic message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of the information received in error is strictly prohibited.
>
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
I have found the easiest way to convince the client to list all their creditors is by:(1) telling them that the right to file bankruptcy requires they list all their creditors; and(2) once they retain my services and make a deposit they have the right to tell their creditors not to contact them any more, instead to call 'their attorney', me; and(3) I ask them to produce a copy of all collection letter and statements from other creditors they receive to decrease the likelihood a creditor will contact them after bankruptcy to collection on a debt that was discharged in their bankruptcy(this avoids those nasty 25 page intake sheets that the client usually doesn't fill out completely anyway)and(4) to take their fresh start to begin again they need to list all their creditors,they have the right to pay back any creditor they want to, bankruptcy only stops the creditors from collection activities.
I always ask if they are Christian. By going back to the Old Testament -Deuteronomy, there is the basis for creditors behavior and remind them that Jesus went to the Cross for our forgiveness, that includes all that goes on in our earthly life, that the history of our country has always been as a liberator and not a conqueror, that the brave men and women who fought for our freedom relied on God for their strength and that our nation would not have been victorious if they had not looked up to God, and that finally, living under the stress of overwhelming debt destroys our health and prevents us from being productive citizens and providing for our families.
I have had many clients come to me and explain that they have been to other attorneys and did not retain their services because the other attorneys would not listen to their background information leading up to their need to file bankruptcy. By asking the client first if there are any questions I can answer, this opens the door for them to say what they need to say so I can gain client control over the information I need. Especially when the client doesn't want to produce the papers necessary to accurately complete thepetitionand schedules. I remind them that I am responsible as their attorney to provide accurate information, I am required to verify information and the only way I can verify the information is for them to get a copy of their 401K, their paychecks, their tax return, etc. Usually when I explain things in this manner, even clients who do not know how to obtain the information, will figure out how. Hope this helps
Law Office of Catherine Christiansen
1077 E Pacific Coast Hwy #210
Seal Beach, CA, 90740
Tel: (562) 361-8721
Fax: (562) 490-8572
attorneychristiansen@gmail.com
This e-mail is private and confidential and is intended solely for therecipient(s) named or otherwise identified herein. If you are notnamed or otherwise identified as an intended recipient, please deletethis e-mail message and any copies thereof and immediately notify theLaw Offices of Catherine Christiansen by e-mail or by telephone (562)608-8368.
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
I second Dennis' advice.
We are the emergency room surgeons of the economy. We are more than mere lawyers charging fees. We are their last resort before despair takes over, many of them heading to divorce and broken families. Be kind, as some of them may be your colleagues who graduated with you from law school; having lost their job or client base to the ever changing economy. You could have been sitting on the other side of the table, and for all you know, may some day! The Mission Statement of the cdcbaa so supports this philosophy.
Some of us have been patching people up and sending them back out into the economy through the ups and downs in the economy; at least three cycles worth. When many left after the 2005 Amendments a small group of us stayed in the game, understanding that we had chosen a profession in which we help those less fortunate, and willing to mentor each other and others to be the best at what we do. Others entered into our specialty in only the last few months or couple of years when they saw an opportunity. I applaud those of you who have entered our specialty only recently. There is more to it than you probably ever dreamed.
But as Dennis said in less words... be kind in your comments about those who put food on your families' tables. They are confused, scared, rattled, emotional and in need of kindness, even when frustration takes hold of them. That is what a member of the cdcbaa does. Please support the Mission Statement of the cdcbaa.
Lou Esbin
>
> Sage advice!
> Sent from my BlackBerry smartphone with SprintSpeed
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2010 19:06:47
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Disclosure of Creditors & Client Diligence
>
> Can I humbly ask we stop trashing our very human clients?
>
> I, for one, would not want to face a malpractice suit and have such a quote paraded before a jury.
>
> Dennis McGoldrick
> 350 S. Crenshaw Bl., #A207B
> Torrance, CA 90503
>
> On Jan 8, 2010, at 6:18 PM, "Steven B. Lever" wrote:
>
> Such is the nature of the debtor beast. Were they ever so diligent there were be far less of us living off their sloth, incompetence, financial illiteracy (innumeracy?)and misfortune.
>
>
>
> Dont get me wrong. I love my debtors. They are often sweet, meek creatures who will undoubtedly inherit the earth in the hereafter. Yet it is our calling and yoke to lead them to the greener pastures of debt relief.
>
>
>
> Charge for schedule amendments in your retainer as well, and shepherd your errant flock to be as accurate as they will allow the schedules to be. And meditate on the Zen koan, When is a debt, not a debt? Soon you will reach bankruptcy attorney nirvana when you reach realization through that koanor you retire.
>
>
>
Robert Vitt
> Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 7:33 AM
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [cdcbaa] Disclosure of Creditors & Client Diligence
>
>
>
>
>
> Anyone else have this problem?
>
>
>
> A very typical scenario for me is to have clients not want to list their creditors but instead "just go by the credit report"...every time I refuse and make the clients complete their intake packet listing all creditors, property etc. My retainer states that I do not investigate the nature of their debts or creditors and I have a lot of language certifying to me that all information is true and correct and informing them of penalties for bankruptcy crimes, etc. etc. .
>
>
>
> Still, it frequently becomes an uphill battle with clients to get them to complete their intake packets to specifically list all their creditors. I explain not listing all creditors could and very likely would cost them their discharge.
>
>
>
> Anyone else have this problem? Maybe it is just the nature of the beast to have clients who do not always have a sense of follow through.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Robert S. Vitt
> VITT LAW FIRM
>
> 3200 E. Guasti Road Ste 100
> Ontario, CA 91761
> 909.275.7594 Office
> 909.275.7621 Facsimile
> www.bankrutpcy-ie.com
> www.vittlawfirm.com
>
> Any tax advice contained in the body of this e-mail was not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, by the recipient for the purpose of avoiding penalties that may be imposed under the Internal Revenue Code or applicable state or local tax law provisions.
>
> Privileged And Confidential Communication.
> This electronic transmission, and any documents attached hereto, (a) are protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act (18 USC 2510-2521), (b) may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information, and (c) are for the sole use of the intended recipient named above. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify the sender and delete the electronic message. Any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of the information received in error is strictly prohibited.
>
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Excellent point. I have a client who that happened to a few years ago
Kenneth Jay Schwartz, Esq.
LAW OFFICE OF KENNETH JAY SCHWARTZ
21031 Ventura Boulevard, 12th Floor
Woodland Hills, California
91364-2203
Telephone: (818)226-1205
Email: kennethjschwartz@yahoo.com
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 9, 2010, at 7:06 PM, Dennis McGoldrick wrote:
Can I humbly ask we stop trashing our very human clients?
I, for one, would not want to face a malpractice suit and have such a quote paraded before a jury.
Dennis McGoldrick
350 S. Crenshaw Bl., #A207B
Torrance, CA 90503
On Jan 8, 2010, at 6:18 PM, "Steven B. Lever" wrote:
Such is the nature of the debtor beast. Were they ever so diligent there were be far less of us living off their sloth, incompetence, financial illiteracy (innumeracy?)and misfortune.
Dont get me wrong. I love my debtors. They are often sweet, meek creatures who will undoubtedly inherit the earth in the hereafter. Yet it is our calling and yoke to lead them to the greener pastures of debt relief.
Charge for schedule amendments in your retainer as well, and shepherd your errant flock to be as accurate as they will allow the schedules to be. And meditate on the Zen koan, When is a debt, not a debt? Soon you will reach bankruptcy attorney nirvana when you reach realization through that koanor you retire.
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Can I humbly ask we stop trashing our very human clients?
I, for one, would not want to face a malpractice suit and have such a quote paraded before a jury.
Dennis McGoldrick
350 S. Crenshaw Bl., #A207B
Torrance, CA 90503
On Jan 8, 2010, at 6:18 PM, "Steven B. Lever" wrote:
Such is the nature of the debtor beast. Were they ever so diligent there were be far less of us living off their sloth, incompetence, financial illiteracy (innumeracy?)and misfortune.
Dont get me wrong. I love my debtors. They are often sweet, meek creatures who will undoubtedly inherit the earth in the hereafter. Yet it is our calling and yoke to lead them to the greener pastures of debt relief.
Charge for schedule amendments in your retainer as well, and shepherd your errant flock to be as accurate as they will allow the schedules to be. And meditate on the Zen koan, When is a debt, not a debt? Soon you will reach bankruptcy attorney nirvana when you reach realization through that koanor you retire.
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
I used to make them fill out the form before their appointment. It worked
fairly well except for some who were functionally illiterate. Those were
actually great clients though as I would just have them in my office and
they would recite for me all their info -- expenses, income, etc with a lot
of accuracy and I'd type them into bestcase myself. I'd use the credit
reports for them -- otherwise I made people fill out my form.
My biggest (and now only since I don't take new BK clients) problem is
clients who filled out the form, but then were not ready to file for some
reason or another (loan mod, waiting out a large transfer, etc.) and who do
not understand why they need to give me the information all over again. I
have to explain multiple times that the creditors of 12 months ago are
usually not the current ones...
1489 E. Colorado Blvd. #207
Pasadena, CA 91106
(626) 507-8090
"Bankruptcy, Michael, is nature's do-over. It's a fresh start, a clean
slate."
"Like the witness protection program!"
"Exactly."
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 7:33 AM, Robert Vitt wrote:
>
>
> Anyone else have this problem?
>
> A very typical scenario for me is to have clients not want to list their
> creditors but instead "just go by the credit report"...every time I refuse
> and make the clients complete their intake packet listing all creditors,
> property etc. My retainer states that I do not investigate the nature of
> their debts or creditors and I have a lot of language certifying to me that
> all information is true and correct and informing them of penalties for
> bankruptcy crimes, etc. etc. .
>
> *Still*, it *frequently* becomes an uphill battle with clients to get them
> to complete their intake packets to specifically list all their creditors.
> I explain not listing all creditors could and very likely would cost them
> their discharge.
>
> Anyone else have this problem? Maybe it is just the nature of the beast to
> have clients who do not always have a sense of follow through.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Robert S. Vitt
> VITT LAW FIRM
>
> 3200 E. Guasti Road Ste 100
> Ontario, CA 91761
> 909.275.7594 Office
> 909.275.7621 Facsimile
> www.bankrutpcy-ie.com
> www.vittlawfirm.com
>
> Any tax advice contained in the body of this e-mail was not intended or
> written to be used, and cannot be used, by the recipient for the purpose of
> avoiding penalties that may be imposed under the Internal Revenue Code or
> applicable state or local tax law provisions.
>
> Privileged And Confidential Communication.
> This electronic transmission, and any documents attached hereto, (a) are
> protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act (18 USC
> 2510-2521), (b) may contain confidential and/or legally privileged
> information, and (c) are for the sole use of the intended recipient named
> above. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify
> the sender and delete the electronic message. Any disclosure, copying,
> distribution, or use of the contents of the information received in error is
> strictly prohibited.
>
>
>
I used to make them fill out the form before their appointment. It worked fairly well except for some who were functionally illiterate. Those were actually great clients though as I would just have them in my office and they would recite for me all their info -- expenses, income, etc with a lot o
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
It is a monumental frustration! Politely put, consumer bankruptcy clients by and large tend not to be brilliant, organized, or thorough people who follow instructions well. However, I do not think we can contract out of our independent responsibility under Section 707(b)(4) (See In Re Dean 401 BR 917) to ensure the accuracy of the creditor information listed when we file for the clients. Even though it takes way too much time I believe we must cross reference the creditor statements and credit reports against the information provided in the completed (one can always hope...
) intake package. More often than not I find a creditor that was not written down on the intake form. The creditor addresses are also commonly wrong on the client provided intake forms, not matching the correspondence address from the last two statements. Account numbers and dollar figures provided are also commonly inaccurate. Ah the vicissitudes of the practice of consumer bankruptcy law - The occasions you actually are fairly compensated for the work performed and the client's actually show commensurate appreciation are the rare proverbial peaks compared to the far more frequent proverbial valley's in dealing with client's deficient assistance....Mark Jessee
>
> Anyone else have this problem?
>
> A very typical scenario for me is to have clients not want to list their
> creditors but instead "just go by the credit report"...every time I refuse
> and make the clients complete their intake packet listing all creditors,
> property etc. My retainer states that I do not investigate the nature of
> their debts or creditors and I have a lot of language certifying to me that
> all information is true and correct and informing them of penalties for
> bankruptcy crimes, etc. etc. .
>
> *Still*, it *frequently* becomes an uphill battle with clients to get them
> to complete their intake packets to specifically list all their creditors.
> I explain not listing all creditors could and very likely would cost them
> their discharge.
>
> Anyone else have this problem? Maybe it is just the nature of the beast to
> have clients who do not always have a sense of follow through.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Robert S. Vitt
> VITT LAW FIRM
>
> 3200 E. Guasti Road Ste 100
> Ontario, CA 91761
> 909.275.7594 Office
> 909.275.7621 Facsimile
> www.bankrutpcy-ie.com
> www.vittlawfirm.com
>
> Any tax advice contained in the body of this e-mail was not intended or
> written to be used, and cannot be used, by the recipient for the purpose of
> avoiding penalties that may be imposed under the Internal Revenue Code or
> applicable state or local tax law provisions.
>
> Privileged And Confidential Communication.
> This electronic transmission, and any documents attached hereto, (a) are
> protected by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act (18 USC
> 2510-2521), (b) may contain confidential and/or legally privileged
> information, and (c) are for the sole use of the intended recipient named
> above. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify
> the sender and delete the electronic message. Any disclosure, copying,
> distribution, or use of the contents of the information received in error is
> strictly prohibited.
>
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Such is the nature of the debtor beast. Were they ever so diligent there were be far less of us living off their sloth, incompetence, financial illiteracy (innumeracy?)and misfortune.
Don't get me wrong. I love my debtors. They are often sweet, meek creatures who will undoubtedly inherit the earth in the hereafter. Yet it is our calling and yoke to lead them to the greener pastures of debt relief.
Charge for schedule amendments in your retainer as well, and shepherd your errant flock to be as accurate as they will allow the schedules to be. And meditate on the Zen koan, "When is a debt, not a debt?" Soon you will reach bankruptcy attorney nirvana when you reach realization through that koan...or you retire.
The post was migrated from Yahoo.