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community property discharge question
Just a reminder to all that medical bills are a necessary of life and tend
to be quite large at times.
I will not be wearing an Hawaiian shirt to the convention, but I will
thinking of you as I enjoy the sea breeze other pleasures here in Maui.
Patrick T. Green, Esq.
Fitzgerald & Green
Attorneys at Law
1010 E. Union Street
Suite 206
Pasadena, CA 91106
Tel: 626-449-8433
Fax: 626-449-0565
pat@fitzgreenlaw.com
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(except for necessaries of life)
watch our for this parenthetical. Necessaries of life
include clothes for the kids, milk at the 7-11, etc.
The comment that no nonfiling spouse gets sued after
the filing spouse gets a discharge is just an
observation, a good one, keep readiing.
One day a bright bushy-tailed attorney will sue a
nonfiling spouse, prove the debts were for
necessities, and win. I have a wierd idea it will be
one of those downstream purchasers of credit-card
debt. They have the most to gain as a three-year-old
debt, purchased for pennies on the dollar will be
worth double due to the 30% default interest.
(remember the community property discharge will
prohibit collection unless a subsequent divorce
intervenes - the real reason not to sue)
I sat in small claims court (after being illegally
ordered to appear for a hearing and give a status on a
bankruptcy) and watched the small claims commissioner
in the Hill St. courthouse give judgment after
judgement against mr & mrs debtor to JC Penney, Sears,
et al, when the creditors brought in the charge slips
and showed the commissioner the charges were for
clothing and household goods, EVEN WHEN THE CREDIT
CARD WAS ONLY IN ONE SPOUSE'S NAME.
After that experience, I have always warned the
spouses (especially if divorced) they may be the first
to meet the bushy-tailed lawyer.
In fact, this thought stream impacts the discussion
last week about not paying a debt assigned in a
divorce as a community property split. The other
spouse may really be liable.
dennis
Yesterday I suggested we all wear Hawaiian shirts to
the NACBA conference. I hope you will join me in so
doing, it will be fun to show the rest of the country
how many we are. Of course, Eric is excused when he
is on the rostrum.
Though maybe a Hawaiian printtie?
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I always follow the rule - who signed the contract. I have never had a creditor go after non-filing spouse for anything once I filed the BK if they did not sign the contract.
M. Erik Clark
Borowitz, Lozano & Clark, LLP
100 N. Barranca Avenue, Suite 250
West Covina, CA 91791
www.BLClaw.com
Office: (626) 332-8600
Fax: (626) 332-8644
Board Certified in Consumer Bankruptcy
American Board of Certification
________________________________
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You shouldn't be up so late at your age.
When you analyze spousal liability, think of them as strangers. If they
were not married would she be liable? Her liability arises only if she has
privity of contract with the creditor (except for necessaries of life). Is
she a jt debtor with hubbie on the cc? If she is, she is personally liable.
I have some memory that there is supposedly a theory of liability for an
authorized user, but I don' buy it. Again she is like a stranger-if the
stranger auth user is not liable, neither is the wife. As to secured debt on
RP, she has to be an obligor on the note.
Don't say community debt, it will only cloud your thinking. What separates
spouses from strangers when it comes to liability for a debt, is that a
spouses share of the CP is liable for the debt of the other spouse. This is
very different from personal liability. One is the liability of the person,
the other is the liability of the property. You might think of like a
security interest-the non-debtor spouse's one half of the CP is "security"
for the for the separate debt of the debtor spouse.
Patrick T. Green, Esq.
Fitzgerald & Green
Attorneys at Law
1010 E. Union Street
Suite 206
Pasadena, CA 91106
Tel: 626-449-8433
Fax: 626-449-0565
pat@fitzgreenlaw.com
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That's the answer I've been getting. Thanks Pat. The problem is (for me), how do you determine if she has individual liability for what is otherwise a community property debt?
For example, if she signed the deeds of trust on real property on which there may deficiencies, is that her individual liability? What about credit cards issued in both her and hubbies name? What if they're only in hubbies name? What if hubby is signator only on the account, but she's an authorized user? I was under the mistaken impression that all debts incurred during the marriage, absent a transmutation via antenuptial, etc., are community debt in California.
______________________
Mark J. Markus
Law Office of Mark J. Markus
11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
Studio City, CA 91604-2652
(818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
web: http://www.bklaw.com/
This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
___________
NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication (or in any attachment).
----- Original Message -----
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 11:46 PM
Subject: RE: [cdcbaa] community property discharge question
Mark: CP debt is a bk term. It has no meaning in non bk debt collection. It depends on whether she has individual liability for the debt. If she does not and the debt was not for the necessaries of life, her SP is not reachable.
Patrick T. Green, Esq.
Fitzgerald & Green
Attorneys at Law
1010 E. Union Street
Suite 206
Pasadena, CA 91106
Tel: 626-449-8433
Fax: 626-449-0565
pat@fitzgreenlaw.com
Mark JM
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 5:45 PM
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [cdcbaa] community property discharge question
For the community property experts out there....
Debtor (H) is married and filing Ch. 7 individually. There is lots of C/P debt. Wife has some separate property assets.
If H files and gets a discharge, can the community creditors come after the non-filing Wife's S/P assets?
______________________
Mark J. Markus
Law Office of Mark J. Markus
11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
Studio City, CA 91604-2652
(818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
web: http://www.bklaw.com/
This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
___________
NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of Mark J. Mparkus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication (or in any attachment).
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Mark: CP debt is a bk term. It has no meaning in non bk debt collection.
It depends on whether she has individual liability for the debt. If she
does not and the debt was not for the necessaries of life, her SP is not
reachable.
Patrick T. Green, Esq.
Fitzgerald & Green
Attorneys at Law
1010 E. Union Street
Suite 206
Pasadena, CA 91106
Tel: 626-449-8433
Fax: 626-449-0565
pat@fitzgreenlaw.com
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
charset="windows-1251"
Messagethanks
----- Original Message -----
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 5:41 PM
Subject: RE: [cdcbaa] community property discharge question
yes
David A. Tilem
Certified Bankruptcy Specialist*
Law Offices of David A. Tilem (a debt relief agency)
206 N. Jackson Street, #201, Glendale, CA 91206
Tel: 818-507-6000 Fax: 818-507-6800
* Bankruptcy specialist cert. by State Bar of CA Bd of Legal Specialization.
Business bankruptcy specialist cert. by Amer. Bd. of Certification
-----Original Message-----
Mark JM
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 4:45 PM
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [cdcbaa] community property discharge question
For the community property experts out there....
Debtor (H) is married and filing Ch. 7 individually. There is lots of C/P debt. Wife has some separate property assets.
If H files and gets a discharge, can the community creditors come after the non-filing Wife's S/P assets?
______________________
Mark J. Markus
Law Office of Mark J. Markus
11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
Studio City, CA 91604-2652
(818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
web: http://www.bklaw.com/
This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
___________
NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication (or in any attachment).
charset="windows-1251"
Message
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
For the community property experts out there....
Debtor (H) is married and filing Ch. 7 individually. There is lots of C/P debt. Wife has some separate property assets.
If H files and gets a discharge, can the community creditors come after the non-filing Wife's S/P assets?
______________________
Mark J. Markus
Law Office of Mark J. Markus
11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
Studio City, CA 91604-2652
(818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
web: http://www.bklaw.com/
This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
___________
NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication (or in any attachment).
For the community property experts out
there....
Debtor (H) is married and filing Ch. 7
individually. There is lots of C/P debt. Wife has some
separate property assets.
If H files and gets a discharge, can the community
creditors come after the non-filing Wife's S/P assets?
______________________Mark J. MarkusLaw
Office of Mark J. Markus11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403Studio City, CA91604-2652(818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)web: http://www.bklaw.com/This Firm is aQualified Federal Debt Relief Agency___________NOTICE: This Electronic
Message contains information from the law office of Mark J. Markus that may be
privileged. The information is intended for the use of the addresseeonly. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy,
distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.IRS
CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS,
we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in
any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for
the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii)
promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or
matter addressed in this communication (or in any
attachment).
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
charset="windows-1251"
yes
David A. Tilem
Certified Bankruptcy Specialist*
Law Offices of David A. Tilem (a debt relief agency)
206 N. Jackson Street, #201, Glendale, CA 91206
Tel: 818-507-6000 Fax: 818-507-6800
* Bankruptcy specialist cert. by State Bar of CA Bd of Legal
Specialization.
Mark JM
Sent: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 4:45 PM
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [cdcbaa] community property discharge question
For the community property experts out there....
Debtor (H) is married and filing Ch. 7 individually. There is lots of C/P
debt. Wife has some separate property assets.
If H files and gets a discharge, can the community creditors come after the
non-filing Wife's S/P assets?
______________________
Mark J. Markus
Law Office of Mark J. Markus
11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
Studio City, CA 91604-2652
(818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
web: http://www.bklaw. com/
This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
___________
NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of
Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the
use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any
disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is
prohibited.
IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by
the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this
communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used,
and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the
Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to
another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication (or
in any attachment).
charset="windows-1251"
Message
yes
David A.
Tilem
Certified Bankruptcy
Specialist*
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