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Do you ever file personal chapter 7s for people who w=
Sorry this analysis is wrong. The transfer of goodwill is all that has to happen to make newco oldco. Once newco oldco all of the debts of oldco are transferred to newco.
The Bk of the individual debtor after the debts are transferred from oldco to newco, won't save newco. Newco already Owes the debts.
Just google schwinn. Schwinn filed Bk. The co was sold to a newco in the bankruptcy, and California courts found the new schwinn liable for damages to a kid who was riding an old schwinn bike when Injured. WAY after the Bk. Oldco newco. Why, the newco bought the goodwill of old schwinn.
Put that in your brain and don't forget it.
D
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 17, 2010, at 5:26 PM, "David A. Tilem" wrote:
Holly:
That is correct. A transfer of assets is a transfer of assets. An assumption of debts is an assumption of debts. How did the business get into the new corporation? What was the nature of that transaction?
David A. Tilem
Certified Bankruptcy Specialist*
Law Offices of David A. Tilem (a debt relief agency)
206 N. Jackson Street, #201, Glendale, CA 91206
Tel: 818-507-6000 Fax: 818-507-6800
* Bankruptcy specialist cert. by State Bar of CA Bd of Legal Specialization.
on
olly Roark
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 10:56 AM
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Do you ever file personal chapter 7s for people who want to keep their small business running?
Mark T.Jessee wrote:
"There is no distinction between the debts of a debtor and debts of the debtor's sole proprietorship. Debts of the sole proprietorship do not attach to any particular assets unless specifically secured by that asset through a valid security agreement or by operation of law."
Is it your opinion that if the sole proprietor was in debt to say, Yellow Pages for $5,000, under an agreement between Yellow Pages and the sole proprietor's DBA, when the sole proprietor incorporates, that debt won't be transferred to the corp, but will be discharged in the personal BK despite it being a "business debt"?
Holly Roark
holly@roarklawoffices.com
On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 2:08 AM, Mark T.Jessee wrote:
Perhaps I missed some nuanced fact in this string, but unless there are business assets which a trustee would liquidate in a chapter 7, I am not following Dennis' logic. I usually see more harm than benefit to the debtor by waiting to incorporate postpetition instead of incorporating prepetition.
Incorporating prior to the bankruptcy appears to usually provide the smoothest outcome for the debtor if there are no nonexempt business assets. Shutting down the business will cause the loss of income to the debtor and the loss of key components to the business, i.e. the telephone number, office space, employees, customer lists, etc. That is not something the debtor can conveniently replace when incorporating a new business postpetition. Incorporating prepetition prevents these hits to the business operation. There is no distinction between the debts of a debtor and debts of the debtor's sole proprietorship. Debts of the sole proprietorship do not attach to any particular assets unless specifically secured by that asset through a valid security agreement or by operation of law. If a prospective debtor incorporates a sole proprietorship prepetition, the assets transferred and used to fund the corporation are in return for the stock being
issued in the prospective debtor's name. The debts do not attach to the corporation. The shares of the stock of the corporation are the prospective debtor's asset instead of the specific business assets. As most small businesses in this situation do not usually have any significant goodwill value without the business principal working in transition with a new owner, and since a chapter 7 trustee cannot force a debtor to work for a new business owner, it really comes down to an analysis of the likely value after liquidation of assets. Liquidating a sole proprietorship only involves assets. Liquidating a corporation requires payment to corporate creditors first before anything is distributed to the shareholder trustee. With appropriate prebankruptcy planning incorporating a new business will have normal creditors, office lease, employee salaries, payroll and/or sales taxes, utilities, etc. From a practical point it makes an incorporated
business less enticing to liquidate than a sole proprietorship.
Looking at sole proprietorship vs. corporation in completing the means test also favors prepetition incorporation. Ever since the Wiegand BAP decision 2 years ago holding that business expenses cannot be deducted from business income in determining current monthly income, speakers at our group's monthly meetings constantly recommend incorporating a sole proprietorship prior to filing a bankruptcy case. That way only the gross revenue received by the debtor is counted instead the gross receipts of the business in determining cmi and whether a debtor is above or below median income. Granted Weigand was a chapter 13 case, but the same principal applies in chapter 7 marginal cases if a trustee or creditor asserts that business expenses should not be included in determining cmi in chapter 7 based on the Weigand analysis.
Absent nonexempt business assets likely to be administered by a chapter 7 trustee, I recommend incorporation to prospective debtors that have employees or have the type of sole proprietorship business a trustee is likely to shut down due to liability issues.
Mark T. Jessee
Law Offices of Mark T. Jessee
"A Debt Relief Agency"
50 W. Hillcrest Drive, Suite 200
Thousand Oaks, CA 91360
(805) 497-5868
On Mon 16/08/10 1:21 PM , Dennis McGoldrick easky1@yahoo.com sent:
bk first. New Inc. after bk filed. All of old co's nonexempt assets, phone, etc., to trustee.
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Then the question becomes: if the assets were exempt under 703 or 704
(under tools of trade), when they become "stock", can they still be exempted
under "tools of trade"? Let's say I don't have the wildcard available but
the stock in my business is now worth $3K because that's the value of the
tools. How do I exempt the "stock"? When the debtor incorporates, should I
have the business assume a liability equal to the assets so the stock is
worth zero?
Holly Roark
holly@roarklawoffices.com
On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 11:46 PM, Mark J. Markus wrote:
>
>
> The transfer of assets to the corporation would be for reasonably
> equivalent value of stock in the new corp and said value would be reflected
> in schedule "B". This is not a mechanism for hiding assets; it's a way to
> enable a debtor to continue operating his business and continue his
> livelihood. If the value of assets being transferred is more than an
> exempted amount, the assets would be at risk either way (transferred or not).
>
>
> *************************
> Mark J. Markus
> Law Office of Mark J. Markus
> 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
> Studio City, CA 91604-2652
> (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
> web: http://www.bklaw.com/
> This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency (see what this means at http://bklaw.com/bankruptcy-blog/2008/0 ... efinition/)
> ________________________________________________
> NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
> IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication.
>
>
> On 8/14/2010 7:21 PM, larry@lsimonslaw.com wrote:
>
> Depends on the nature and value of the assets if a trustee will seek to
> avoid the transfer into the corp.
>
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> ------------------------------
> *Sender: *cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> *Date: *Sat, 14 Aug 2010 19:07:12 -0700
> *To: *
> *ReplyTo: *cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> *Subject: *Re: [cdcbaa] Do you ever file personal chapter 7s for people
> who wantto keep their small business running?
>
>
> I think pre-inc debt is just personal debt, but it is arguable whether the
> transfer of the assets to the inc. is a fraudulent transfer. Has anyone had
> a trustee fight them on this? We are generally talking about a business
> where the assets are so small they would be exempt even if they stayed as a
> sole proprietor so I think it would be kind of a no harm no foul transfer.
> Thoughts?
>
> Holly Roark
> holly@roarklawoffices.com
>
> On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Bert Kawahara wrote:
>
>>
>> If you incorporate an existing business before BK, how do you transfer
>> the business to the corp without the preexisting business debt?
>>
>> Bert Kawahara
>>
>> --- On *Sat, 8/14/10, larry@webbklaw.com * wrote:
>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Do you ever file personal chapter 7s for people who
>> wantto keep their small business running?
>> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 4:51 PM
>>
>>
>>
>> The INC is an asset not party in the bk.
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>> ------------------------------
>> *Sender: *cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
>> *Date: *Sat, 14 Aug 2010 14:48:46 -0700
>> *To: *
>> *ReplyTo: *cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
>> *Subject: *Re: [cdcbaa] Do you ever file personal chapter 7s for people
>> who want to keep their small business running?
>>
>>
>> If the debtor incorporates, though, then there's a better chance that
>> the debtor can keep it up and running? Does it make a difference whether it
>> is an Inc. or an LLC?
>>
>> I am glad to see all the discussion on this topic.
>>
>> --
>> Holly Roark
>> holly@roarklawoffices.com> www.roarklawoffices.com
>> Central District of California
>> Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Holly Roark
> holly@roarklawoffices.com
> www.roarklawoffices.com
> Central District of California
> Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney
>
>
>
Holly Roark
holly@roarklawoffices.com
www.roarklawoffices.com
Central District of California
Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney
Then the question becomes: if the assets were exempt under 703 or 704 (under tools of trade), when they become "stock", can they sti
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Okay. That's what I was trying to understand. But now the issue has been
raised regarding the portion of the debtor's debt that is really "business"
debt. That gets transferred to the corp if you incorporate before filing
the personal bk?
Holly Roark
CDCA
holly@roarklawoffices.com
On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 11:46 PM, Mark J. Markus wrote:
>
>
> The transfer of assets to the corporation would be for reasonably
> equivalent value of stock in the new corp and said value would be reflected
> in schedule "B". This is not a mechanism for hiding assets; it's a way to
> enable a debtor to continue operating his business and continue his
> livelihood. If the value of assets being transferred is more than an
> exempted amount, the assets would be at risk either way (transferred or not).
>
>
> *************************
> Mark J. Markus
> Law Office of Mark J. Markus
> 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
> Studio City, CA 91604-2652
> (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
> web: http://www.bklaw.com/
> This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency (see what this means at http://bklaw.com/bankruptcy-blog/2008/0 ... efinition/)
> ________________________________________________
> NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
> IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication.
>
>
> On 8/14/2010 7:21 PM, larry@lsimonslaw.com wrote:
>
> Depends on the nature and value of the assets if a trustee will seek to
> avoid the transfer into the corp.
>
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> ------------------------------
> *Sender: *cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> *Date: *Sat, 14 Aug 2010 19:07:12 -0700
> *To: *
> *ReplyTo: *cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> *Subject: *Re: [cdcbaa] Do you ever file personal chapter 7s for people
> who wantto keep their small business running?
>
>
> I think pre-inc debt is just personal debt, but it is arguable whether the
> transfer of the assets to the inc. is a fraudulent transfer. Has anyone had
> a trustee fight them on this? We are generally talking about a business
> where the assets are so small they would be exempt even if they stayed as a
> sole proprietor so I think it would be kind of a no harm no foul transfer.
> Thoughts?
>
> Holly Roark
> holly@roarklawoffices.com
>
> On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Bert Kawahara wrote:
>
>>
>> If you incorporate an existing business before BK, how do you transfer
>> the business to the corp without the preexisting business debt?
>>
>> Bert Kawahara
>>
>> --- On *Sat, 8/14/10, larry@webbklaw.com * wrote:
>>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Do you ever file personal chapter 7s for people who
>> wantto keep their small business running?
>> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 4:51 PM
>>
>>
>>
>> The INC is an asset not party in the bk.
>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>> ------------------------------
>> *Sender: *cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
>> *Date: *Sat, 14 Aug 2010 14:48:46 -0700
>> *To: *
>> *ReplyTo: *cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
>> *Subject: *Re: [cdcbaa] Do you ever file personal chapter 7s for people
>> who want to keep their small business running?
>>
>>
>> If the debtor incorporates, though, then there's a better chance that
>> the debtor can keep it up and running? Does it make a difference whether it
>> is an Inc. or an LLC?
>>
>> I am glad to see all the discussion on this topic.
>>
>> --
>> Holly Roark
>> holly@roarklawoffices.com> www.roarklawoffices.com
>> Central District of California
>> Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Holly Roark
> holly@roarklawoffices.com
> www.roarklawoffices.com
> Central District of California
> Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney
>
>
>
Holly Roark
holly@roarklawoffices.com
www.roarklawoffices.com
Central District of California
Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney
Okay. That's what I was trying to understand. But now the issue has been raised regarding the portion of the debtor's debt that is really "business" debt. That gets transferred to the corp if you incorporate before filing the personal bk?
Holly Roark
CDCAholly@roarklawoffices.com
On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 11:46 PM, Mark J. Markus <bklawr@yahoo.com> wrote:
The transfer of assets to the corporation would be for reasonably equivalent value of stock in the new corp and said value would be reflected in schedule "B". This is not a mechanism for hiding assets; it's a way to enable a debtor to continue operating his business and continue his livelihood. If the value of assets being transferred is more than an exempted amount, the assets would be at risk either way (transferred or not).
*************************
Mark J. Markus
Law Office of Mark J. Markus
11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
Studio City, CA 91604-2652
(818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
web: http://www.bklaw.com/
This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency (see what this means at http://bklaw.com/bankruptcy-blog/2008/0 ... efinition/)
________________________________________________
NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication.
On 8/14/2010 7:21 PM, larry@lsimonslaw.com wrote:
Depends on the nature and value of the assets if a trustee will seek to avoid the transfer into the corp.
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
get"_blank"><hollyroark22@gmail.com>
Sender: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 19:07:12 -0700
To: <cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com>
ReplyTo: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Do you ever file personal chapter 7s for people who wantto keep their small business running?
I think pre-inc debt is just personal debt, but it is arguable whether the transfer of the assets to the inc.is a fraudulent transfer. Has anyone had a trustee fight them on this? We are generally talking about a business where the assets are so small they would be exempt even if they stayed as a sole proprietor so I think it would be kind of a no harm no foul transfer. Thoughts?
Holly Roark
holly@roarklawoffices.com
On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Bert Kawahara <bertkawahara@yahoo.com> wrote:
If you incorporate an existing business before BK, how do you transfer the business to the corp without thepreexisting business debt?
Bert Kawahara--- On Sat, 8/14/10, larry@webbklaw.com <larry@webbklaw.com> wrote:
ef"mailto:larry@webbklaw.com" target"_blank">larry@webbklaw.com <larry@webbklaw.com>
Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Do you ever file personal chapter 7s for people who wantto keep their small business running?To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.comDate: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 4:51 PM
The INC is an asset not party in the bk.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
target"_blank">hollyroark22@gmail.com>
Sender: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 14:48:46 -0700
To: <cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com>
ReplyTo: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Do you ever file personal chapter 7s for people who want to keep their small business running?
If the debtor incorporates, though, then there's a better chance that the debtor can keep it up and running? Does it make a difference whether it is an Inc. or an LLC?
I am glad to see all the discussion on this topic.-- Holly Roarkholly@roarklawoffices.com
www.roarklawoffices.comCentral District of CaliforniaConsumer Bankruptcy Attorney
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
I think pre-inc debt is just personal debt, but it is arguable whether the
transfer of the assets to the inc. is a fraudulent transfer. Has anyone had
a trustee fight them on this? We are generally talking about a business
where the assets are so small they would be exempt even if they stayed as a
sole proprietor so I think it would be kind of a no harm no foul transfer.
Thoughts?
Holly Roark
holly@roarklawoffices.com
On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Bert Kawahara wrote:
>
>
> If you incorporate an existing business before BK, how do you transfer
> the business to the corp without the preexisting business debt?
>
> Bert Kawahara
>
> --- On *Sat, 8/14/10, larry@webbklaw.com * wrote:
>
>
> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Do you ever file personal chapter 7s for people who
> wantto keep their small business running?
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 4:51 PM
>
>
>
> The INC is an asset not party in the bk.
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
> ------------------------------
> *Sender: *cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> *Date: *Sat, 14 Aug 2010 14:48:46 -0700
> *To: *
> *ReplyTo: *cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> *Subject: *Re: [cdcbaa] Do you ever file personal chapter 7s for people
> who want to keep their small business running?
>
>
> If the debtor incorporates, though, then there's a better chance that the
> debtor can keep it up and running? Does it make a difference whether it is
> an Inc. or an LLC?
>
> I am glad to see all the discussion on this topic.
>
> --
> Holly Roark
> holly@roarklawoffices.com
> www.roarklawoffices.com
> Central District of California
> Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney
>
>
>
>
Holly Roark
holly@roarklawoffices.com
www.roarklawoffices.com
Central District of California
Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney
I think pre-inc debt is just personal debt, but it is arguable whether the transfer of the assets to the inc.is a fraudulent transfer. Has anyone had a trustee fight them on this? We are generally talking about a business where the assets are so small they would be exempt even if they stayed as a sole proprietor so I think it would be kind of a no harm no foul transfer. Thoughts?
Holly Roark
holly@roarklawoffices.com
On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Bert Kawahara <bertkawahara@yahoo.com> wrote:
If you incorporate an existing business before BK, how do you transfer the business to the corp without thepreexisting business debt?
Bert Kawahara--- On Sat, 8/14/10, larry@webbklaw.com <larry@webbklaw.com> wrote:
ef"mailto:larry@webbklaw.com" target"_blank">larry@webbklaw.com <larry@webbklaw.com>
Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Do you ever file personal chapter 7s for people who wantto keep their small business running?To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.comDate: Saturday, August 14, 2010, 4:51 PM
The INC is an asset not party in the bk.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
target"_blank">hollyroark22@gmail.com>
Sender: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 14:48:46 -0700
To: <cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com>
ReplyTo: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Do you ever file personal chapter 7s for people who want to keep their small business running?
If the debtor incorporates, though, then there's a better chance that the debtor can keep it up and running? Does it make a difference whether it is an Inc. or an LLC?
I am glad to see all the discussion on this topic.-- Holly Roarkholly@roarklawoffices.com
www.roarklawoffices.comCentral District of CaliforniaConsumer Bankruptcy Attorney
-- Holly Roarkholly@roarklawoffices.comwww.roarklawoffices.com
Central District of CaliforniaConsumer Bankruptcy Attorney
The post was migrated from Yahoo.