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Exempting 529 Plans
He's not only a very smart guy but a super close friend for over 15 years or so! I have a 529 issue I'm dealing with right now and its been a major pain in the behind, so my heart skipped a beat when I thought maybe you guys knew a different course! Oh well, client is going to have to take some pain, which I already told her was a distinct possibility. Now we'll see if the trustee considers this amount worth going after in light of the amount of unsecured debt.
Todd
P.S. Nice to meet you, Jay.
>
> Nope, Pat is right about the fact that it has nothing to do with retirement. I had never thought of it in terms of ERISA but figured that Mike is a smart guy so maybe he knew of an angle I hadn't considered.
>
> I still don't see the ERISA angle with respect to the 529 Plan though that does not detract from Mike or his abilities.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 12, 2012, at 5:40 PM, "t_mannis" wrote:
>
> > I'm missing something. I think. Isn't a 529 plan an educational savings plan under Section 529 of the Internal Revenue Code? As its not a retirement plan, how would ERISA apply? I have a 529 issue right now, so if I'm missing something here, I'd love to know! As far as I understood, it was simply a matter of determinging whether it was property of the estate, which in turn depended upon when the contributions were made. I've already told the client we could have an issue with regard to the most recent contributions, so I'd love to be wrong.
> >
> > Todd Mannis
> >
> > --- In cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com, Jay Fleischman wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't think 529 plans are ERISA-qualified; then again, I've not looked at
> > > the Plan documents. Off to do just that, so thanks for the idea.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Michael Grennier wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Jay. Generally it's CCP 704.110 and 704.115
> > > >
> > > > Michael Grennier
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Jay Fleischman wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> **
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Folks, I know 541(b)(6) allows for the exemption of 529 plans with
> > > >> certain exceptions. Where in the California exemption scheme can I find
> > > >> something that speaks to this issue?
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks in advance.
> > > >>
> > > >> -------------
> > > >> Jay S. Fleischman, Esq.
> > > >> Shaev & Fleischman, LLP
> > > >>
> > > >> Email isn't secure, so it's not confidential. By communicating with me
> > > >> by email, you understand that it's not confidential.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > *Grennier Law, PC*
> > > > *#1 Bankruptcy Filing Attorney in Ventura Co*
> > > > *5851 Thille Street, Suite 103*
> > > > *Ventura, CA 93003*
> > > > (805) 643-3900
> > > > (805) 830-0467 - Fax
> > > > grennierlaw.com
> > > > nopainbk.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended only
> > > > for the use of the Individual (s) named above. If you are not the intended
> > > > recipient of this e-mail, or the employee or agent responsible for
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> > > > dissemination or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
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> > > > 643-3900 or notify us by e-mail
> > > > at: grennierlaw@
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Nope, Pat is right about the fact that it has nothing to do with retirement. I had never thought of it in terms of ERISA but figured that Mike is a smart guy so maybe he knew of an angle I hadn't considered.
I still don't see the ERISA angle with respect to the 529 Plan though that does not detract from Mike or his abilities.
Sent from my iPad
On Aug 12, 2012, at 5:40 PM, "t_mannis" wrote:
> I'm missing something. I think. Isn't a 529 plan an educational savings plan under Section 529 of the Internal Revenue Code? As its not a retirement plan, how would ERISA apply? I have a 529 issue right now, so if I'm missing something here, I'd love to know! As far as I understood, it was simply a matter of determinging whether it was property of the estate, which in turn depended upon when the contributions were made. I've already told the client we could have an issue with regard to the most recent contributions, so I'd love to be wrong.
>
> Todd Mannis
>
> --- In cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com, Jay Fleischman wrote:
> >
> > I don't think 529 plans are ERISA-qualified; then again, I've not looked at
> > the Plan documents. Off to do just that, so thanks for the idea.
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Michael Grennier wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Jay. Generally it's CCP 704.110 and 704.115
> > >
> > > Michael Grennier
> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Jay Fleischman wrote:
> > >
> > >> **
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Folks, I know 541(b)(6) allows for the exemption of 529 plans with
> > >> certain exceptions. Where in the California exemption scheme can I find
> > >> something that speaks to this issue?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks in advance.
> > >>
> > >> -------------
> > >> Jay S. Fleischman, Esq.
> > >> Shaev & Fleischman, LLP
> > >>
> > >> Email isn't secure, so it's not confidential. By communicating with me
> > >> by email, you understand that it's not confidential.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > *Grennier Law, PC*
> > > *#1 Bankruptcy Filing Attorney in Ventura Co*
> > > *5851 Thille Street, Suite 103*
> > > *Ventura, CA 93003*
> > > (805) 643-3900
> > > (805) 830-0467 - Fax
> > > grennierlaw.com
> > > nopainbk.com
> > >
> > >
> > > This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended only
> > > for the use of the Individual (s) named above. If you are not the intended
> > > recipient of this e-mail, or the employee or agent responsible for
> > > delivering this to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
> > > dissemination or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> > > received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify us by telephone at (805)
> > > 643-3900 or notify us by e-mail
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
Nope, Pat is right about the fact that it has nothing to do with retirement. I had never thought of it in terms of ERISA but figured that Mike is a smart guy so maybe he knew of an angle I hadn't considered.I still don't see the ERISA angle with respect to the 529 Plan though that does not detract from Mike or his abilities.Sent from my iPadOn Aug 12, 2012, at 5:40 PM, "t_mannis" <toddlaw@dslextreme.com> wrote:
I'm missing something. I think. Isn't a 529 plan an educational savings plan under Section 529 of the Internal Revenue Code? As its not a retirement plan, how would ERISA apply? I have a 529 issue right now, so if I'm missing something here, I'd love to know! As far as I understood, it was simply a matter of determinging whether it was property of the estate, which in turn depended upon when the contributions were made. I've already told the client we could have an issue with regard to the most recent contributions, so I'd love to be wrong.
Todd Mannis
a>, Jay Fleischman <bankruptcy@...> wrote:
>
> I don't think 529 plans are ERISA-qualified; then again, I've not looked at
> the Plan documents. Off to do just that, so thanks for the idea.
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Michael Grennier <grennierlaw@...>wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Hi Jay. Generally it's CCP 704.110 and 704.115
> >
> > Michael Grennier
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Jay Fleischman <bankruptcy@...>wrote:
> >
> >> **
> >>
> >>
> >> Folks, I know 541(b)(6) allows for the exemption of 529 plans with
> >> certain exceptions. Where in the California exemption scheme can I find
> >> something that speaks to this issue?
> >>
> >> Thanks in advance.
> >>
> >> -------------
> >> Jay S. Fleischman, Esq.
> >> Shaev & Fleischman, LLP
> >>
> >> Email isn't secure, so it's not confidential. By communicating with me
> >> by email, you understand that it's not confidential.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Grennier Law, PC*
> > *#1 Bankruptcy Filing Attorney in Ventura Co*
> > *5851 Thille Street, Suite 103*
> > *Ventura, CA 93003*
> > (805) 643-3900
> > (805) 830-0467 - Fax
> > grennierlaw.com
> > nopainbk.com
> >
> >
> > This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended only
> > for the use of the Individual (s) named above. If you are not the intended
> > recipient of this e-mail, or the employee or agent responsible for
> > delivering this to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
> > dissemination or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> > received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify us by telephone at (805)
> > 643-3900 or notify us by e-mail
> > at: grennierlaw@... <at%3Alrozalyn7345@...>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
I'm missing something. I think. Isn't a 529 plan an educational savings plan under Section 529 of the Internal Revenue Code? As its not a retirement plan, how would ERISA apply? I have a 529 issue right now, so if I'm missing something here, I'd love to know! As far as I understood, it was simply a matter of determinging whether it was property of the estate, which in turn depended upon when the contributions were made. I've already told the client we could have an issue with regard to the most recent contributions, so I'd love to be wrong.
Todd Mannis
>
> I don't think 529 plans are ERISA-qualified; then again, I've not looked at
> the Plan documents. Off to do just that, so thanks for the idea.
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Michael Grennier wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Hi Jay. Generally it's CCP 704.110 and 704.115
> >
> > Michael Grennier
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Jay Fleischman wrote:
> >
> >> **
> >>
> >>
> >> Folks, I know 541(b)(6) allows for the exemption of 529 plans with
> >> certain exceptions. Where in the California exemption scheme can I find
> >> something that speaks to this issue?
> >>
> >> Thanks in advance.
> >>
> >> -------------
> >> Jay S. Fleischman, Esq.
> >> Shaev & Fleischman, LLP
> >>
> >> Email isn't secure, so it's not confidential. By communicating with me
> >> by email, you understand that it's not confidential.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *Grennier Law, PC*
> > *#1 Bankruptcy Filing Attorney in Ventura Co*
> > *5851 Thille Street, Suite 103*
> > *Ventura, CA 93003*
> > (805) 643-3900
> > (805) 830-0467 - Fax
> > grennierlaw.com
> > nopainbk.com
> >
> >
> > This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended only
> > for the use of the Individual (s) named above. If you are not the intended
> > recipient of this e-mail, or the employee or agent responsible for
> > delivering this to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
> > dissemination or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> > received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify us by telephone at (805)
> > 643-3900 or notify us by e-mail
> > at: grennierlaw@...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
I don't think 529 plans are ERISA-qualified; then again, I've not looked at
the Plan documents. Off to do just that, so thanks for the idea.
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Michael Grennier wrote:
> **
>
>
> Hi Jay. Generally it's CCP 704.110 and 704.115
>
> Michael Grennier
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:10 PM, Jay Fleischman wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> Folks, I know 541(b)(6) allows for the exemption of 529 plans with
>> certain exceptions. Where in the California exemption scheme can I find
>> something that speaks to this issue?
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> -------------
>> Jay S. Fleischman, Esq.
>> Shaev & Fleischman, LLP
>>
>> Email isn't secure, so it's not confidential. By communicating with me
>> by email, you understand that it's not confidential.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> *Grennier Law, PC*
> *#1 Bankruptcy Filing Attorney in Ventura Co*
> *5851 Thille Street, Suite 103*
> *Ventura, CA 93003*
> (805) 643-3900
> (805) 830-0467 - Fax
> grennierlaw.com
> nopainbk.com
>
>
> This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended only
> for the use of the Individual (s) named above. If you are not the intended
> recipient of this e-mail, or the employee or agent responsible for
> delivering this to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
> dissemination or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
> received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify us by telephone at (805)
> 643-3900 or notify us by e-mail
> at: grennierlaw@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
I say this without knowing much about how these accounts are set up,
but I don't think so because this isn't a transfer from the debtors
to someone else. It is like an insurance policy that the debtors
hold where someone else (usually children) are the beneficiaries.
If it is property of the estate, that means it is by definition IN
the estate and hasn't been transferred. This is different from a
preferential transfer to a relative, for example which you can't
really exempt even if it's returned because the Trustee (estate)
gets it under section 550.
*************************
Mark J. Markus
Law Office of Mark J. Markus
11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
Studio City, CA 91604-2652
(818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
web: http://www.bklaw.com/
Certified Bankruptcy Law Specialist--The State Bar of California
Board of Legal Specialization
This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency (see what this
means at
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
541(a)(6) does not exempt from property of the estate any 529 contributions within 1 year prior to petition date, or any contributions in excess of $5475 between 1-2 years prior to the petition date.
At least in theory, couldn't a trustee use 548(a)(1)(B) to avoid excess 529 contributions--even if you tried to use the wildcard exemption to exempt the funds?
>
> to the extent it is property of the estate per 541(a)(6) it can be
> exempted with the wildcard exemption of 703.140(b)(5).
>
> *************************
> Mark J. Markus
> Law Office of Mark J. Markus
> 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
> Studio City, CA 91604-2652
> (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
> web: http://www.bklaw.com/
> Certified Bankruptcy Law Specialist--The State Bar of California
> Board of Legal Specialization
>
> This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency (see what this
> means at
> http://www.bklaw.com/bankruptcy-blog/20 ... efinition/)
> ________________________________________________
> NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law
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> On 8/10/2012 2:35 PM, Jay Fleischman wrote:
> >
> >
> > Jason, thanks for the response.
> >
> > I understand it's excluded to the extent that timing of funding
> > plays in the debtor's favor. I'm just wondering whether
> > California law provides for the same exclusion or whether a
> > practitioner here relies solely on 541(b)(6).
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Jason Wallach
> > > > wrote:
> >
> > Jay:
> >
> > The 541(b)(6) provision is an exclusion from property of the
> > estate, so no exemption is called for or needed. If you are
> > asking for a non-bankruptcy exemption under California law, I
> > am not aware of any; but the first line of defense would be it
> > isn't property of the debtor, but only held in trust for the
> > beneficiary...
> > Not sure that exhausts the subject, but it's what I know.
> > Jason Wallach
> > jwallach@...
> >
> >
> >
> > On Aug 10, 2012, at 2:10 PM, Jay Fleischman wrote:
> >
> >> Folks, I know 541(b)(6) allows for the exemption of 529 plans
> >> with certain exceptions. Where in the California exemption
> >> scheme can I find something that speaks to this issue?
> >>
> >> Thanks in advance.
> >>
> >> -------------
> >> Jay S. Fleischman, Esq.
> >> Shaev & Fleischman, LLP
> >>
> >> Email isn't secure, so it's not confidential. By
> >> communicating with me by email, you understand that it's not
> >> confidential.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
to the extent it is property of the estate per 541(a)(6) it can be
exempted with the wildcard exemption of 703.140(b)(5).
*************************
Mark J. Markus
Law Office of Mark J. Markus
11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
Studio City, CA 91604-2652
(818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
web: http://www.bklaw.com/
Certified Bankruptcy Law Specialist--The State Bar of California
Board of Legal Specialization
This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency (see what this
means at
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Jay - Another thought. If the account is ERISA qualified, it's not an
asset of the bankruptcy estate. I always list them in the petition and I
put (Account is ERISA qualified and NOT an asset of the bankruptcy estate.
Account is listed for disclosure purposes only) with a value of $0.00 - no
need to expemt.
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Jason Wallach wrote:
> **
>
>
> Jay:
> The 541(b)(6) provision is an exclusion from property of the estate, so no
> exemption is called for or needed. If you are asking for a non-bankruptcy
> exemption under California law, I am not aware of any; but the first line
> of defense would be it isn't property of the debtor, but only held in trust
> for the beneficiary...
> Not sure that exhausts the subject, but it's what I know.
> Jason Wallach
> jwallach@gladstonemichel.com
>
>
>
> On Aug 10, 2012, at 2:10 PM, Jay Fleischman wrote:
>
>
>
> Folks, I know 541(b)(6) allows for the exemption of 529 plans with certain
> exceptions. Where in the California exemption scheme can I find something
> that speaks to this issue?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> -------------
> Jay S. Fleischman, Esq.
> Shaev & Fleischman, LLP
>
> Email isn't secure, so it's not confidential. By communicating with me by
> email, you understand that it's not confidential.
>
>
>
>
*Grennier Law, PC*
*#1 Bankruptcy Filing Attorney in Ventura Co*
*5851 Thille Street, Suite 103*
*Ventura, CA 93003*
(805) 643-3900
(805) 830-0467 - Fax
grennierlaw.com
nopainbk.com
This e-mail contains PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended only
for the use of the Individual (s) named above. If you are not the intended
recipient of this e-mail, or the employee or agent responsible for
delivering this to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify us by telephone at
(805) 643-3900 or notify us by e-mail
at: grennierlaw@gmail.com
Jay - Another thought. If the account is ERISA qualified, it's not an asset of the bankruptcy estate. I always list them in the petition andate. Account is listed for disclosure purposes only) with a value of $0.00 - no need to expemt.
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Jason Wallach <jwallach@gladstonemichel.com> wrote:
Jay:The 541(b)(6) provision is an exclusion from property of the estate, so no exemption is called for or needed. If you are asking for a non-bankruptcy exemption under California law, I am not aware of any; but the first line of defense would be it isn't property of the debtor, but only held in trust for the beneficiary...
Not sure that exhausts the subject, but it's what I know.
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Jason, thanks for the response.
I understand it's excluded to the extent that timing of funding plays in
the debtor's favor. I'm just wondering whether California law provides for
the same exclusion or whether a practitioner here relies solely on
541(b)(6).
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Jason Wallach wrote:
> **
>
>
> Jay:
> The 541(b)(6) provision is an exclusion from property of the estate, so no
> exemption is called for or needed. If you are asking for a non-bankruptcy
> exemption under California law, I am not aware of any; but the first line
> of defense would be it isn't property of the debtor, but only held in trust
> for the beneficiary...
> Not sure that exhausts the subject, but it's what I know.
> Jason Wallach
> jwallach@gladstonemichel.com
>
>
>
> On Aug 10, 2012, at 2:10 PM, Jay Fleischman wrote:
>
>
>
> Folks, I know 541(b)(6) allows for the exemption of 529 plans with certain
> exceptions. Where in the California exemption scheme can I find something
> that speaks to this issue?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> -------------
> Jay S. Fleischman, Esq.
> Shaev & Fleischman, LLP
>
> Email isn't secure, so it's not confidential. By communicating with me by
> email, you understand that it's not confidential.
>
>
>
>
Jason, thanks for the response.I understand it's excluded to the extent that timing of funding plays in the debtor's favor. I'm just wondering whether California law provides for the same exclusion or whether a practitioner here relies solely on 541(b)(6).
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Jason Wallach <jwallach@gladstonemichel.com> wrote:
Jay:The 541(b)(6) provision is an exclusion from property of the estate, so no exemption is called for or needed. If you are asking for a non-bankruptcy exemption under California law, I am not aware of any; but the first line of defense would be it isn't property of the debtor, but only held in trust for the beneficiary...
Not sure that exhausts the subject, but it's what I know.
The post was migrated from Yahoo.