Tax Dischargeability for late filed return

Yahoo Bot · Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:13 am

I think you are on the right track.
Robert
In a message dated 10/13/2012 7:08:10 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
sdoyle@blclaw.com writes:
Now that I have looked at this with a fresh mind I think I11 U.S.C. 507(a)(8)(A)(iii) does not apply to late filers (so not relevantin Steves case). It applies to taxpayers who have filed timely but have
extended the assessment period either by agreement or a pending Tax Court case
or a pending audit. So if the BK is filed during that period in which thetax is still assessable but not yet fully assessed, the tax will not be
dischargeable.
Am I on track now, John?
Shannon A. Doyle
Attorney at Law
100 N. Barranca Avenue, Suite 250
West Covina, CA 91791-1600
Tel: (626) 646-2555
Fax: (626) 332-8644
_www.blclaw.com_ (http://www.blclaw.com/)
Shannon Doyle
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 6:01 PM
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [cdcbaa] RE: Tax Dischargeability for late filed return
It references 11 U.S.C. 507(a)(8)(A)(iii) .
Shannon A. Doyle
Attorney at Law
100 N. Barranca Avenue, Suite 250
West Covina, CA 91791-1600
Tel: (626) 646-2555
Fax: (626) 332-8644
_www.blclaw.com_ (http://www.blclaw.com/)
[_mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com) ] On Behalf Of John
D. Faucher
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 3:03 PM
To: _cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com)
Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] RE: Tax Dischargeability for late filed return
I'm agreeing with you as well.
If NACBA is preaching that there is another 3-year rule, i.e., that you
can't discharge a tax year that is still assessable, well, that's one I'venever heard of.
- John D. Faucher
818/889-8080
On 10/12/12 2:22 PM, Steven B. Lever wrote:
So it seems like you and Mark Jessee agree with me and not the EA, which
is a wonderful confirmation. The EA was making me slightly nervous, and Ihave always measured the 3 year rule from the expiration of the date of last
extension, if any, and not the actual file date, if later. Ive filed
past cases on that basis as well.
Thank you for this I guess thats why were bankruptcy attorneys and he
s an EA we should know better.
[_mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com) ] On Behalf Of Link
W. Schrader
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:57 PM
To: _cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com)
Subject: RE: [cdcbaa] RE: Tax Dischargeability for late filed return
Steve:
3-Year Rule Due date for 2008 tax return is 4/15/09 unless he got an
extension then due date is the extension date (six month extension
10/15/09) so the 3 year period would have run by 10/16/12.
2-Year Rule He filed the return on 11/16/09, so the 2 year period ran
through 11/16/11.
Given no assessment in last 240 days, no fraud, or willful evasion, I
believe the tax would not be priority tax if filed on or after 10/16/12. Im not sure how you arrived at 10/22/12?
Link Schrader, Attorney
Law Office of Link W. Schrader
[mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com]_ (mailto:[mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com]) On Behalf
Of Steven B. Lever
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:10 PM
To: _cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com)
Subject: RE: [cdcbaa] RE: Tax Dischargeability for late filed return
Hi Link:
I know these rules. So my question remains; where do you think the hypo Igave falls.
2008 tax year filed November 16, 2009.
I file Chapter 7 on October 22, 2012 for client.
2 years obviously met. Assume no further assessments or willful tax
evasion or fraud.
Is 2008 discharged, or should I have waited to file after November 16th?Steve
[_mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com) ] On Behalf Of Link
W. Schrader
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:09 PM
To: _cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com)
Subject: [cdcbaa] RE: Tax Dischargeability for late filed return
Morgan King gives 5 rules for discharging income tax in chapter 7 which
include:
1) The Three-Year Rule: For the tax year in question the most recent
due date for filing the return is more than three years old. The
three-year period is computed from most recent date the tax return is due for the
tax year (typically April 15 of the year following the taxable year). Anextension to file the return delays the start time. 11 U.S.C. Section 507(a)(8)(A)(i). Do not confuse with the 2-year rule.
2) The Two-Year Rule: A tax return or equivalent report or notice, if
required, has been filed or given by the taxpayer for the tax year(s) in
question at least more than two years preceding the filing date of the
bankruptcy. 11 U.S.C. 523(a)(1)(B).
3) The 240-Day Rule: The tax claim was assessed at least more than 240days preceding the filing date of the bankruptcy. 11 U.S.C. Section
507(a)(8)(A)(ii).
4) Non-Fraudulent Return: The tax return in question was
non-fraudulent. 11 U.S.C. Section 523(a)(1)(C).
5) No Willful Tax Evasion: The taxpayer has not engaged in activity
deemed a willful attempt to defeat or evade the tax. 11 U.S.C. Section
523(a)(1)(C).
There is a much more detailed analysis available from Mr. King at
_www.morganking.com_ (http://www.morganking.com/) .
Link Schrader, Attorney
Law Office of Link W. Schrader
_[mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com]_ (mailto:[mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com]) On Behalf
Of Steven B. Lever
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 11:47 AM
To: _cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com)
Subject: [cdcbaa] Tax Dischargeability for late filed return
Im having an argument with an enrolled agent about the
dischargeability of a clients 2008 tax year, which as you all may know is the most recent
tax year dischargeable to date.
Client filed the 2008 tax return on November 16, 2009, about a month afterit was due in October 2009.
The question is whether it is a priority tax under 11 U.S.C. 507. Priorities are nondischargeable and non-priorities are.
11 U.S.C. 507(a)(8)(A)(i) makes the 3 year rule as such: for which
a return, if required, is last due, including extensions, after three
years before the date of the filing of the petition. Emphasis on Hence, I believe that filing her on October 22nd or later is sufficient,
and the EA believes I have to wait until after 11/16/12.
Who is correct? Btw, there are no assessments.
Law Offices of Steven B. Lever
>
> Steven B. Lever
>( Tel. (562) 436-5456 ext. 1
>( Fax (562) 485-6886
>* _sblever@leverlaw.com_ (mailto:sblever@leverlaw.com)
I think you are on the right track.

Robert

In a message dated 10/13/2012 7:08:10 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
sdoyle@blclaw.com writes:

Now that I
have looked at this with a fresh mind I think Ive got it. 11 U.S.C. 507(a)(8)(A)(iii) does not
apply to late filers (so not relevant in Steves case). It applies to
taxpayers who have filed timely but have extended the assessment period either
by agreement or a pending Tax Court case or a pending audit. So if the BK is
filed during that period in which the tax is still assessable but not yet fully assessed, the tax will not be dischargeable.

Am I on track
now, John?

Shannon A.
Doyle
Attorney at
Law

100 N. Barranca Avenue, Suite
250
West Covina, CA
91791-1600
Tel: (626)
646-2555
Fax: (626)
332-8644
www.blclaw.com

From: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Shannon
DoyleSent: Friday, October 12, 2012 6:01 PMTo:
cdcbaa@yahoogroups.comSubject: RE: [cdcbaa] RE: Tax
Dischargeability for late filed return

It references
11 U.S.C. 507(a)(8)(A)(iii) .

Shannon A.
Doyle
Attorney at
Law

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Yahoo Bot · Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:53 pm

You do not need to wait until November. I presume the client was on
extension for Federal (State is automatic) to file by October 15, 2009. Accordingly it was due that date, unless there was some other extension for some
sort of natural disaster, etc. You can file 10/16/12 or later to discharge
it under the 3 year rule under 11 U.S.C. Section 507(a)(8)(A)(i)
Mark T. Jessee
Law Offices of Mark T. Jessee
"A Debt Relief Agency"
50 W. Hillcrest Drive, Suite 200
Thousand Oaks, CA 91360
(805) 497-5868 (805) 497-5864 (Facsimile)
In a message dated 10/12/2012 12:14:40 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
sblever@leverlaw.com writes:
Hi Link:
I know these rules. So my question remains; where do you think the hypo Igave falls.
2008 tax year filed November 16, 2009.
I file Chapter 7 on October 22, 2012 for client.
2 years obviously met. Assume no further assessments or willful tax
evasion or fraud.
Is 2008 discharged, or should I have waited to file after November 16th?
Steve
Link W. Schrader
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:09 PM
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [cdcbaa] RE: Tax Dischargeability for late filed return
Morgan King gives 5 rules for discharging income tax in chapter 7 which
include:
1) The Three-Year Rule: For the tax year in question the most recent
due date for filing the return is more than three years old. The
three-year period is computed from most recent date the tax return is due for the
tax year (typically April 15 of the year following the taxable year). Anextension to file the return delays the start time. 11 U.S.C. Section 507(a)(8)(A)(i). Do not confuse with the 2-year rule.
2) The Two-Year Rule: A tax return or equivalent report or notice, if
required, has been filed or given by the taxpayer for the tax year(s) in
question at least more than two years preceding the filing date of the
bankruptcy. 11 U.S.C. 523(a)(1)(B).
3) The 240-Day Rule: The tax claim was assessed at least more than 240days preceding the filing date of the bankruptcy. 11 U.S.C. Section
507(a)(8)(A)(ii).
4) Non-Fraudulent Return: The tax return in question was
non-fraudulent. 11 U.S.C. Section 523(a)(1)(C).
5) No Willful Tax Evasion: The taxpayer has not engaged in activity
deemed a willful attempt to defeat or evade the tax. 11 U.S.C. Section
523(a)(1)(C).
There is a much more detailed analysis available from Mr. King at
_www.morganking.com_ (http://www.morganking.com/) .
Link Schrader, Attorney
Law Office of Link W. Schrader
_[mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com]_ (mailto:[mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com]) On Behalf
Of Steven B. Lever
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 11:47 AM
To: _cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com)
Subject: [cdcbaa] Tax Dischargeability for late filed return
Im having an argument with an enrolled agent about the
dischargeability of a clients 2008 tax year, which as you all may know is the most recent
tax year dischargeable to date.
Client filed the 2008 tax return on November 16, 2009, about a month afterit was due in October 2009.
The question is whether it is a priority tax under 11 U.S.C. 507. Priorities are nondischargeable and non-priorities are.
11 U.S.C. 507(a)(8)(A)(i) makes the 3 year rule as such: for which
a return, if required, is last due, including extensions, after three
years before the date of the filing of the petition. Emphasis on Hence, I believe that filing her on October 22nd or later is sufficient,
and the EA believes I have to wait until after 11/16/12.
Who is correct? Btw, there are no assessments.
Law Offices of Steven B. Lever
>
> Steven B. Lever
>( Tel. (562) 436-5456 ext. 1
>( Fax (562) 485-6886
>* sblever@leverlaw.com
You do not need to wait until November. I presume the client was on
extension for Federal (State is automatic) to file by October 15, 2009.
Accordingly it was due that date, unless there was some other extension for some
sort of natural disaster, etc. You can file 10/16/12 or later todischarge it under the 3 year rule under 11 U.S.C.
Section 507(a)(8)(A)(i)

Mark T.
JesseeLaw Offices of Mark T. Jessee"A Debt Relief Agency"50 W.Hillcrest Drive, Suite 200Thousand Oaks, CA 91360(805) 497-5868 (805)
497-5864 (Facsimile)

In a message dated 10/12/2012 12:14:40 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
sblever@leverlaw.com writes:

Hi Link:

I know these rules. So
my question remains; where do you think the hypo I gave
falls.

2008 tax year filed November
16, 2009.

I file Chapter 7 on October
22, 2012 for client.

2 years obviously met.
Assume no further assessments or willful tax evasion or
fraud.

Is 2008 discharged, or should
I have waited to file after November 16th?

Steve

From: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Link W.
SchraderSent: Friday, October 12, 2012 12:09 PMTo: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.comSubject: [cdcbaa] RE: Tax Dischargeability
for late filed return

Morgan King gives 5 rules for
discharging income tax in chapter 7 which include:

1) The Three-Year Rule: For the tax year in question
the most recent due date for filing the return is more than three years
old. The three-year period is computed from most recent date the tax
return is due for the tax year (typically April 15 of the year following the
taxable year). An extension to file the return delays the start
time. 11 U.S.C. Section 507(a)(8)(A)(i). Do not confuse with
the 2-year rule.
2) The Two-Year Rule: A tax return or equivalent report or
notice, if required, has been filed or given by the taxpayer for the tax year(s) in question at least more than two years preceding the filing date of
the bankruptcy. 11 U.S.C. 523(a)(1)(B).
3) The 240-Day Rule: The tax claim was assessed at least
more than 240 days preceding the filing date of the bankruptcy. 11 U.S.C. Section 507(a)(8)(A)(ii).
4) Non-Fraudulent Return: The tax return in question was
non-fraudulent. 11 U.S.C. Section 523(a)(1)(C).
5) No Willful Tax Evasion: The taxpayer has not engaged in
activity deemed a willful attempt to defeat or evade the tax. 11 U.S.C.
Section 523(a)(1)(C).

There is a much more detailed
analysis available from Mr. King at
The post was migrated from Yahoo.