.jpg)
Chapter 13 IRS secured tax lien
Relatively rare. I did two referrals in 10 years;at least one
resultedin a lawsuit, I don't recall the other. You need pretty
egregious facts, a lot of history of the debtor trying to evade the
IRS's actions. The US Attorney's Office makes it clear that it doesn't
like these.
- John D. Faucher
818/889-8080
On 10/27/12 7:11 PM, Dennis wrote:
> How often have you seen these suits file? I've never seen one.
>
> So aren't they, really, dead after 10 years?
>
> d
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 26, 2012, at 4:51 PM, "John D. Faucher "
> wrote:
>
>> True. Extension of the CSED (collection statute expiration date) can
>> only occur with a suit to reduce to judgment, generally filed at
>> least six months before the end of the statutory period by the asst
>> US atty. CSED tolls with a bankruptcy.
>> - John D. Faucher
>> 818/889-8080
>>
>>
>> On 10/26/12 11:59 AM, Gerald McNally wrote:
>>>
>>> But without an extension of the 10-year CSED, the tax lien can’t be
>>> refilled absent a suit in District Court once the 10 years is up.
>>> And the IRS must get the U.S. Attorney’s Office to file the suit.
>>>
>>> Gerry McNally
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gerald McNally
>>>
>>> McNally & Associates, P.C.
>>>
>>> 517 East Wilson Ave., Ste 104
>>>
>>> Glendale, CA 91206
>>>
>>> 818.507.5100
>>>
>>> Fax: 818.507.5001
>>>
>>> Notice to Recipient: This email is meant for only the intended
>>> recipient of the transmission and may be a communication privileged
>>> by law. If you received this email in error, and review, use,
>>> dissemination, distribution or copying of this email is strictly
>>> prohibited. Please notify us immediately of the error by return
>>> email and please delete this message and any and all duplicates of
>>> this message from your system. Thank you in advance for your
>>> cooperation.
>>>
>>> *IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with the
>>> requirements imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you
>>> that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (including
>>> any attachments) is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for
>>> the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue
>>> code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party
>>> any transaction or matter addressed herein.*
>>>
>>
>
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
How often have you seen these suits file? I've never seen one.
So aren't they, really, dead after 10 years?
d
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 26, 2012, at 4:51 PM, "John D. Faucher " wrote:
> True. Extension of the CSED (collection statute expiration date) can only occur with a suit to reduce to judgment, generally filed at least six months before the end of the statutory period by the asst US atty. CSED tolls with a bankruptcy.
> - John D. Faucher
> 818/889-8080
>
>
> On 10/26/12 11:59 AM, Gerald McNally wrote:
>> But without an extension of the 10-year CSED, the tax lien cant be refilled absent a suit in District Court once the 10 years is up. And the IRS must get the U.S. Attorneys Office to file the suit.
>>
>>
>>
>> Gerry McNally
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Gerald McNally
>>
>> McNally & Associates, P.C.
>>
>> 517 East Wilson Ave., Ste 104
>>
>> Glendale, CA 91206
>>
>> 818.507.5100
>>
>> Fax: 818.507.5001
>>
>>
>>
>> Notice to Recipient: This email is meant for only the intended recipient of the transmission and may be a communication privileged by law. If you received this email in error, and review, use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. Please notify us immediately of the error by return email and please delete this message and any and all duplicates of this message from your system. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
>>
>>
>>
>> IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with the requirements imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
>>
>>
>>
>
How often have you seen these suits file? I've never seen one. So aren't they, really, dead after 10 years?dSent from my iPhoneOn Oct 26, 2012, at 4:51 PM, "John D. Faucher " <j.d.faucher@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
True. Extension of the CSED (collection statute expiration date)
can only occur with a suit to reduce to judgment, generally filed at
least six months before the end of the statutory period by the asst
US atty. CSED tolls with a bankruptcy.
- John D. Faucher
818/889-8080
On 10/26/12 11:59 AM, Gerald McNally
wrote:
But without an extension of the
10-year CSED, the tax lien cant be refilled absent a
suit in District Court once the 10 years is up. And
the IRS must get the U.S. Attorneys Office to file
the suit.
Gerry McNally
<mime-attachment.jpg>
Gerald McNally
McNally & Associates, P.C.
517 East Wilson Ave., Ste 104
Glendale, CA 91206
818.507.5100
Fax: 818.507.5001
Notice to Recipient:
This email is meant for only the intended recipient of
the transmission and may be a communication privileged
by law. If you received this email in error, and
review, use, dissemination, distribution or copying of
this email is strictly prohibited. Please notify us
immediately of the error by return email and please
delete this message and any and all duplicates of this
message from your system. Thank you in advance for
your cooperation.
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
True. Extension of the CSED (collection statute expiration date) can
only occur with a suit to reduce to judgment, generally filed at least
six months before the end of the statutory period by the asst US atty.
CSED tolls with a bankruptcy.
- John D. Faucher
818/889-8080
On 10/26/12 11:59 AM, Gerald McNally wrote:
>
> But without an extension of the 10-year CSED, the tax lien can't be
> refilled absent a suit in District Court once the 10 years is up. And
> the IRS must get the U.S. Attorney's Office to file the suit.
>
> Gerry McNally
>
> McNally Bus Card Smaller
>
> Gerald McNally
>
> McNally & Associates, P.C.
>
> 517 East Wilson Ave., Ste 104
>
> Glendale, CA 91206
>
> 818.507.5100
>
> Fax: 818.507.5001
>
> Notice to Recipient: This email is meant for only the intended
> recipient of the transmission and may be a communication privileged by
> law. If you received this email in error, and review, use,
> dissemination, distribution or copying of this email is strictly
> prohibited. Please notify us immediately of the error by return email
> and please delete this message and any and all duplicates of this
> message from your system. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
>
> *IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with the
> requirements imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you
> that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (including
> any attachments) is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for
> the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue code
> or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any
> transaction or matter addressed herein.*
>
>
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
But without an extension of the 10-year CSED, the tax lien can't be
refilled absent a suit in District Court once the 10 years is up. And
the IRS must get the U.S. Attorney's Office to file the suit.
Gerry McNally
McNally Bus Card Smaller
Gerald McNally
McNally & Associates, P.C.
517 East Wilson Ave., Ste 104
Glendale, CA 91206
818.507.5100
Fax: 818.507.5001
Notice to Recipient: This email is meant for only the intended
recipient of the transmission and may be a communication privileged by
law. If you received this email in error, and review, use,
dissemination, distribution or copying of this email is strictly
prohibited. Please notify us immediately of the error by return email
and please delete this message and any and all duplicates of this
message from your system. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.
IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with the requirements
imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that any U.S.
tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments)
is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i)
avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue code or (ii) promoting,
marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter
addressed herein.
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
I'll correct the correction. The IRS may refile a tax lien after the tax
has been discharged, because that action merely maintains the status
quo. In re O'Callaghan, 342 BR 364, and cases cited therein.
- John D. Faucher
818/889-8080
On 10/25/12 11:15 AM, Dennis McGoldrick wrote:
> one correction, irs tax liens expire in 10 years. If the tax was
> discharged, the lien(s) cannot be refiled. If not discharged, it/they
> may be refiled by the IRS in some circumstances.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Nicholas Gebelt
> *To:* "cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com"
> *Cc:* "ngebelt@goodbye2debt.com"
> *Sent:* Monday, October 15, 2012 10:00 PM
> *Subject:* RE: [cdcbaa] Chapter 13 IRS secured tax lien
>
> Dear Sina,
> It is important to distinguish between an /in personam/ tax liability
> against the debtor as a person, and an /in rem/ claim the IRS has
> against a debtor’s retirement. While the tax liability may be
> dischargeable as a personal liability, if the IRS has a prepetition
> lien against the debtor’s retirement plan, the lien still remains
> after the discharge. /See/ the Internal Revenue Manual § 5.11.6.2(15)
> at http://www.irs.gov/irm/part5/irm_05-011-006.html :
> Retirement accounts that are exempted from the bankruptcy estate are
> still subject to being levied to collect taxes that are discharged in
> bankruptcy, where a Notice of Federal Tax Lien was filed before
> bankruptcy. For retirement accounts that are excluded from the
> bankruptcy estate, the Service may still levy on those accounts to
> collect taxes that are discharged in bankruptcy even when no Notice of
> Federal Tax Lien has been filed. It is only necessary that the
> discharged taxes were assessed, that notice and demand was given, and
> that the statutory lien arose before the bankruptcy was filed.
> To grasp this somewhat counterintuitive concept it may be helpful to
> consider the following analogous situation. Suppose a homeowner
> debtor receives a Chapter 7 discharge, but still retains the home.
> Although the discharge extinguished the /in personam /liability on the
> mortgage debt, the debtor does not get a free house because the /in
> rem /claim against the property, /i.e./, the mortgage lien, still
> remains against the title.
> And IRS tax liens, like diamonds, are forever.
> Good luck,
> Nicholas Gebelt, Ph.D., J.D.
> Board Certified Bankruptcy Specialist
> Description: cid:image003.jpg@01CC076B.B14D73C0
> Law Offices of Nicholas Gebelt
> 15150 Hornell Street
> Whittier, CA 90604
> Phone: 562.777.9159
> FAX: 562.946.1365
> Email: ngebelt@goodbye2debt.com ;
> ngebelt@gebeltlaw.com
> Web: www.goodbye2debt.com
> Blog: www.southerncaliforniabankruptcylawblog.com/
>
> *We are a debt relief agency. We help people file for bankruptcy
> relief under the Bankruptcy Code.*
> *Confidentiality Note*: This e-mail is intended only for the person or
> entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is
> privileged, confidential, or otherwise protected from disclosure.
> Dissemination, distribution, or copying of this e-mail or the
> information herein by anyone other than the intended recipient, or an
> employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the
> intended recipient, is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail
> in error, please notify us immediately at 562.777.9159 or e-mail
> info@gebeltlaw.com and destroy the original
> message and all copies.
> *Representation Note*: If you have not signed a contract of
> representation, the Law Offices of Nicholas Gebelt do not represent
> you, and this email does not contain any legal advice for you.
> *IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: *In order to comply with the
> requirements imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you
> that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (including
> any attachments) is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for
> the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue code,
> or (ii) promoting, marketing, or recommending to another party any
> transaction or matter addressed herein.
> *From:*cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com] *On
> Behalf Of *Jeffrey S. Shinbrot
> *Sent:* Monday, October 15, 2012 8:21 PM
> *To:* cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> *Cc:* cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [cdcbaa] Chapter 13 IRS secured tax lien
> Can't a retirement plan serve as collateral, as long as the lien
> attaches pre-Petition date?
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Oct 15, 2012, at 6:57 PM, "Sina Maghsoudi" > wrote:
>
> Hi,
> The tax lien is not a priority debt. In other words, it is about 8
> years old. The problem is that the IRS rep. insists that the ERISA
> retirement plan can serve as collateral. It can't because it is
> not part of the bankruptcy estate for the purposes of tax liens.
> If anybody has a sample objection of claim for any claim, I would
> appreciate it. It really doesn't matter what type of claim. I
> just want to make sure I have the basic process and statutes correct.
> Best,
> Sina
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:*Giovanni Orantes
> *To:* "cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com "
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:33 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [cdcbaa] Chapter 13 IRS secured tax lien
>
>
> Your analysis seems wrong, Sina. I don't see any fact in your
> fact pattern that would indicate the tax is dischargeable. Did
> you omit some relevant date or fact re tax lien validity?
>
> .
>
>
> --
> Giovanni Orantes, Esq.
> Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
> 3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 1980
> Los Angeles, CA 90010
> Tel: (213) 389-4362
> Fax: (877) 789-5776
> e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
> website: www.gobklaw.com
>
> WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
>
> SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY, RIVERSIDE, SAN
> BERNARDINO AND SANTA BARBARA.
>
> Note: The information contained in this e-mail message is
> confidential information intended only for the use of the
> individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not
> the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it
> to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
> dissemination, distribution or copy of this communication is
> strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in
> error, please immediately notify us by telephone or e-mail and
> delete the original e-mail – at (213) 389-4362 or (888) 619-8222.
>
> IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with requirements
> imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that any
> U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (including any
> attachments) is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for
> the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue
> Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or recommending to another
> party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
>
>
>
>
>
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
one correction, irs tax liens expire in 10 years. If the tax was discharged, the lien(s) cannot be refiled. If not discharged, it/they may be refiled by the IRS in some circumstances.
________________________________
To: "cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com"
Cc: "ngebelt@goodbye2debt.com"
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2012 10:00 PM
Subject: RE: [cdcbaa] Chapter 13 IRS secured tax lien
Dear Sina,
It is important to distinguish between an in personam tax liability against the debtor as a person, and an in rem claim the IRS has against a debtors a personal liability, if the IRS has a prepetition lien against the debtors retirement plan, the lien still remains after the discharge.ov/irm/part5/irm_05-011-006.html :
Retirement accounts that are exempted from the bankruptcy estate are still subject to being levied to collect taxes that are discharged in bankruptcy, where a Notice of Federal Tax Lien was filed before bankruptcy. For retirement accounts that are excluded from the bankruptcy estate, the Service may still levy on those accounts to collect taxes that are discharged in bankruptcy even when no Notice of Federal Tax Lien has been filed. It is only necessary that the discharged taxes were assessed, that notice and demand was given, and that the statutory lien arose before the bankruptcy was filed.
To grasp this somewhat counterintuitive concept it may be helpful to consider the following analogous situation. Suppose a homeowner debtor receives a Chapter 7 discharge, but still retains the home. Although the discharge extinguished the in personam liability on the mortgage debt, the debtor does not get a free house because the in rem claim against the property, i.e., the mortgage lien, still remains against the title.
And IRS tax liens, like diamonds, are forever.
Good luck,
Nicholas Gebelt, Ph.D., J.D.
Board Certified Bankruptcy Specialist
Law Offices of Nicholas Gebelt
15150 Hornell Street
Whittier, CA 90604
Phone: 562.777.9159
FAX: 562.946.1365
Email: ngebelt@goodbye2debt.com; ngebelt@gebeltlaw.com
Web: www.goodbye2debt.com
Blog: www.southerncaliforniabankruptcylawblog.com/
We are a debt relief agency. We help people file for bankruptcy relief under the Bankruptcy Code.
Confidentiality Note: This e-mail is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or otherwise protected from disclosure. Dissemination, distribution, or copying of this e-mail or the information herein by anyone other than the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, is prohibited. at 562.777.9159 or e-mail info@gebeltlaw.comand destroy the original message and all copies.
Representation Note: If you have not signed a contract of representation, the Law Offices of Nicholas Gebelt do not represent you, and this email does not contain any legal advice for you.
IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with the requirements imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue code, or (ii) promoting, marketing, or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
From:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey S. Shinbrot
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2012 8:21 PM
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Cc: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Chapter 13 IRS secured tax lien
Can't a retirement plan serve as collateral, as long as the lien attaches pre-Petition date?
Sent from my iPad
On Oct 15, 2012, at 6:57 PM, "Sina Maghsoudi" wrote:
Hi,
>
>The tax lien is not a priority debt. In other words, it is about 8 years old. The problem is that the IRS rep. insists that the ERISA retirement plan can serve as collateral. It can't because it is not part of the bankruptcy estate for the purposes of tax liens.
>
>If anybody has a sample objection of claim for any claim, I would appreciate it. It really doesn't matter what type of claim. I just want to make sure I have the basic process and statutes correct.
>
>Best,
>
>Sina
>
>
>________________________________
>
>From:Giovanni Orantes
>To: "cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com"
>Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:33 PM
>Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Chapter 13 IRS secured tax lien
>
>
>
>Your analysis seems wrong, Sina. I don't see any fact in your fact pattern that would indicate the tax is dischargeable. Did you omit some relevant date or fact re tax lien validity?
>
>
>.
>
>
>--
>Giovanni Orantes, Esq.
>Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
>3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 1980
>Los Angeles, CA 90010
>Tel: (213) 389-4362
>Fax: (877) 789-5776
>e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
>website: www.gobklaw.com
>
>WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
>
>SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY, RIVERSIDE, SAN BERNARDINO AND SANTA BARBARA.
>
>Note: The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us by telephone or e-mail and delete the original e-mail
at (213) 389-4362 or (888) 619-8222.
>
>IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with requirements imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for
the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
>
>
>
>
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Hi,
The tax lien is not a priority debt. In other words, it is about 8 years old. The problem is that the IRS rep. insists that the ERISA retirement plan can serve as collateral. It can't because it is not part of the bankruptcy estate for the purposes of tax liens.
If anybody has a sample objection of claim for any claim, I would appreciate it. It really doesn't matter what type of claim. I just want to make sure I have the basic process and statutes correct.
Best,
Sina
________________________________
To: "cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Chapter 13 IRS secured tax lien
Your analysis seems wrong, Sina. I don't see any fact in your fact pattern that would indicate the tax is dischargeable. Did you omit some relevant date or fact re tax lien validity?
.
>
Giovanni Orantes, Esq.
Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 1980
LosAngeles, CA 90010
Tel: (213) 389-4362
Fax: (877) 789-5776
e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
website: www.gobklaw.com
WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOSANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY, RIVERSIDE, SAN BERNARDINO AND SANTA BARBARA.
Note: The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us by telephone or e-mail and delete the original e-mail
IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with requirements imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Your analysis seems wrong, Sina. I don't see any fact in your fact pattern
that would indicate the tax is dischargeable. Did you omit some relevant
date or fact re tax lien validity?
.
>
>
>
Giovanni Orantes, Esq.
Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 1980
Los Angeles, CA 90010
Tel: (213) 389-4362
Fax: (877) 789-5776
e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
website: www.gobklaw.com
WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY, RIVERSIDE, SAN BERNARDINO
AND SANTA BARBARA.
Note: The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential
information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If
the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent
responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this communication
is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error,
please immediately notify us by telephone or e-mail and delete the original
e-mail at (213) 389-4362 or (888) 619-8222.
IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with requirements imposed
by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice
contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended
to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties
under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or
recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
Your analysis seems wrong, Sina. I don't see any fact in your fact pattern that would indicate the tax is dischargeable. Did you omit some relevant date or fact re tax lien validity?
.
-- Giovanni Orantes, Esq. Orantes Law Firm, P.C.3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 1980Los Angeles, CA 90010Tel: (213) 389-4362Fax: (877) 789-5776e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
website: www.gobklaw.comWE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY, RIVERSIDE, SAN BERNARDINO AND SANTA BARBARA.
Note: The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us by telephone or e-mail and delete the original e-mail IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with requirements imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Thanks for the advice. The tax is dischargeable if ruled to be unsecured. Does anyone have a sample motion to object to a claim in a Chapter 13.
TIA
Sina
________________________________
To: "cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Chapter 13 IRS secured tax lien
Sina,
You are correct. Since the pension is not property of the estate the claim is unsecured. If you file an objection to the claim, the tax will be ruled unsecured. Is the tax a dischargeable variety?
Keep in mind the statute won't run in 2014. You are extending the statute with the Bk.
D
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 25, 2012, at 8:52 AM, "Steven B. Lever" wrote:
>I guess you can make that argument in the Chapter 13, and not pay the value of the ERISA qualified plan, but after the case the IRS can take their pension. It may be better to pay their secured interest (whether in or out of the estate) now so they dont start messing with postpetition appreciation and contributions. Put in the plan that it satisfies their secured interest in the plan.
>Steven B. Lever
>
>From:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sina Maghsoudi
>Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 6:41 PM
>To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Chapter 13 IRS secured tax lien
>
>
>Hi,
>
>I appreciate the advice. My question is a little more specific. There is case law that states that ERISA qualified plans are not part of the bankruptcy estate and not secured. The IRS filed manual says the same thing.
>
>InPatterson vs. Shumate,the Supreme court held that ERISA, a federal statute, qaulifies under the definition of applicable non-bankruptcy law. The Court held that ERISA mandated restrictions on the transfer of pensions and 401(k) accounts were the type of non-bankruptcy law to which section 541(c)(2) refers: a debtors interest in an ERISA qualified pension plan may be excluded from the property of thebankruptcyestate pursuant to 541(c)(2).The important lesson for consumers is that your 401(k), if ERISA qualified, does not become part of the bankruptcy estate.
>The general rule is that if a property is not part of the bankruptcy estate then the debtor doesn't have to pay off the secured debt during the Chapter 13 plan. My understanding of the case law is that the IRS keeps its lien for statutory period but the lien operates outside of the Chapter 13 case. In other words, the nonpriority tax lien isn't discharged as unsecured debt. For my client that is great because the lien will expire in 2014. The client also doesn't care about the lien at this point in time. She is filing Chapter 13 for a different reason. The debtor just can't afford to pay the lien off during the Chapter 13. Can I make a deal with the IRS where the lien doesn't get discharged and the IRS won't object to the plan?
>Should I be able to exclude the property from the bankruptcy estate and claim the IRS can't claim it as security. If the IRS doesn't play ball, what type of motion should I bring to have the judge rule on the issue. The trustee's attorney informed me --off the record-- that my issue has generally not been a problem for debtor's, but I have no idea what to do because the IRS representative has the same opinion as the attorney's on this list serve. If the trustee doesn't object, does that mean the IRS has to file an objection to the plan or will the judge support the IRS even if the trustees doesn't objection.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>I know most people have better things to do at this time, but I don't.
>
>Sina
>
>
>________________________________
>
>From:Dennis
>To: "cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com"
>Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 5:52 PM
>Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Chapter 13 IRS secured tax lien
>
>
>IRS can claim a lien on anything. Prior to 1996 tax act, there was nothing one could do, but now debtors can wait out the 10 year statute before
>Collecting from pension.Not a remedy for a 13 plan.
>D
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>On Sep 24, 2012, at 2:41 PM, Sina Maghsoudi wrote:
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>Thanks for the advice. I thought there was significant authority that the ERISA plan, UC retirement, can't be the basis for a tax lien. My client can pay 5K of the car equity, but won't be able to pay anywhere near the 15K for ERISA.
>>
>>On the Internet the IRS instructions for employees state that ERISA-qualified retirement or 11 USC 541 property isn't property of the estate. Will the IRS representative work with me on this. Initially, he seemed to fell that the entire 25k, including junk personal property and the ERISA retirement, justified secured tax status.
>>
>>If the IRS doesn't play ball, will the trustee still object and do I need to file a motion to modify or object to the secured tax status.
>>
>>Best,
>>
>>Sina
>>
>>
>>________________________________
>>
>>From:Catherine Christiansen
>>To: "cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com"
>>Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 3:20 PM
>>Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Chapter 13 IRS secured tax lien
>>
>>
>>You should amend the petition to show the debt is secured. I don't know if your plan is confirmed yet and amending will incur the filing fee.want the worthless property. They are looking at the 401K and the vehicle. You should be able to strip the lien to the value of the 401K and the vehicle. Call the IRS Representative on the POC and speak with them. They are usually cooperative and will amend the claim as secured and unsecured according to the value of the property.
>>
>>
>>Catherine Christiansen
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Sina,
You are correct. Since the pension is not property of the estate the claim is unsecured. If you file an objection to the claim, the tax will be ruled unsecured. Is the tax a dischargeable variety?
Keep in mind the statute won't run in 2014. You are extending the statute with the Bk.
D
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 25, 2012, at 8:52 AM, "Steven B. Lever" wrote:
> I guess you can make that argument in the Chapter 13, and not pay the value of the ERISA qualified plan, but after the case the IRS can take their pension. It may be better to pay their secured interest (whether in or out of the estate) now so they dont start messing with postpetition appreciation and contributions. Put in the plan that it satisfies their secured interest in the plan.
>
> Steven B. Lever
>
>
>
Sina Maghsoudi
> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 6:41 PM
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Chapter 13 IRS secured tax lien
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I appreciate the advice. My question is a little more specific. There is case law that states that ERISA qualified plans are not part of the bankruptcy estate and not secured. The IRS filed manual says the same thing.
>
>
>
> In Patterson vs. Shumate, the Supreme court held that ERISA, a federal statute, qaulifies under the definition of applicable non-bankruptcy law. The Court held that ERISA mandated restrictions on the transfer of pensions and 401(k) accounts were the type of non-bankruptcy law to which section 541(c)(2) refers: a debtors interest in an ERISA qualified pension plan may be excluded from the property of the bankruptcy estate pursuant to 541(c)(2). The important lesson for consumers is that your 401(k), if ERISA qualified, does not become part of the bankruptcy estate.>
> The general rule is that if a property is not part of the bankruptcy estate then the debtor doesn't have to pay off the secured debt during the Chapter 13 plan. My understanding of the case law is that the IRS keeps its lien for statutory period but the lien operates outside of the Chapter 13 case. In other words, the nonpriority tax lien isn't discharged as unsecured debt. For my client that is great because the lien will expire in 2014. The client also doesn't care about the lien at this point in time. She is filing Chapter 13 for a different reason. The debtor just can't afford to pay the lien off during the Chapter 13. Can I make a deal with the IRS where the lien doesn't get discharged and the IRS won't object to the plan?
>
> Should I be able to exclude the property from the bankruptcy estate and claim the IRS can't claim it as security. If the IRS doesn't play ball, what type of motion should I bring to have the judge rule on the issue. The trustee's attorney informed me --off the record-- that my issue has generally not been a problem for debtor's, but I have no idea what to do because the IRS representative has the same opinion as the attorney's on this list serve. If the trustee doesn't object, does that mean the IRS has to file an objection to the plan or will the judge support the IRS even if the trustees doesn't objection.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> I know most people have better things to do at this time, but I don't.
>
>
>
> Sina
>
>
>
> To: "cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com"
> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 5:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Chapter 13 IRS secured tax lien
>
>
>
>
>
> IRS can claim a lien on anything. Prior to 1996 tax act, there was nothing one could do, but now debtors can wait out the 10 year statute before
>
> Collecting from pension. Not a remedy for a 13 plan.
>
> D
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Sep 24, 2012, at 2:41 PM, Sina Maghsoudi wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the advice. I thought there was significant authority that the ERISA plan, UC retirement, can't be the basis for a tax lien. My client can pay 5K of the car equity, but won't be able to pay anywhere near the 15K for ERISA.
>
>
>
> On the Internet the IRS instructions for employees state that ERISA-qualified retirement or 11 USC 541 property isn't property of the estate. Will the IRS representative work with me on this. Initially, he seemed to fell that the entire 25k, including junk personal property and the ERISA retirement, justified secured tax status.
>
>
>
> If the IRS doesn't play ball, will the trustee still object and do I need to file a motion to modify or object to the secured tax status.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Sina
>
>
>
> To: "cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com"
> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 3:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Chapter 13 IRS secured tax lien
>
>
>
>
>
> You should amend the petition to show the debt is secured. I don't know if your plan is confirmed yet and amending will incur the filing fee. The IRS is entitled to interest on the debt. The IRS will not want the worthless property. They are looking at the 401K and the vehicle. You should be able to strip the lien to the value of the 401K and the vehicle. Call the IRS Representative on the POC and speak with them. They are usually cooperative and will amend the claim as secured and unsecured according to the value of the property.
>
>
>
>
>
> Catherine Christiansen
>
Sina,You are correct. Since the pension is not property of the estate the claim is unsecured. If you file an objection to the claim, the tax will be ruled unsecured. Is the tax a dischargeable variety?Keep in mind the statute won't run in 2014. You are extending the statute with the Bk. DSent from my iPhoneOn Sep 25, 2012, at 8:52 AM, "Steven B. Lever" <sblever@leverlaw.com> wrote:
The post was migrated from Yahoo.