Page 1 of 2

Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes?

Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:05 am
by Yahoo Bot

Dennis:
First, I must humbly withdraw my "crack" remark. I thought the issue of FC was easily no a problem for this PC, but see now that it is very much an issue. I agree with Pat that simply telling the Uncle he forgot to record and that with a BK on the horizon that could have an effect, just doesn't sound like the DEBTOR doing something to "hinder delay or defraud".
What if I told you that when the Uncle made the loan in 2007 the debtor was the one who was supposed to handle the recording, and he simply forgot. Now, if he doesn't tell the Uncle, isn't he facing a fruad claim by the uncle if he discovers his mistake and runs into BK court without at least letting the Uncle know he forgot to record uncle's TD 4 years ago? But your saying if he tells the uncle and uncle acts to protect himself, the debtor has acted to hinder delay or defraud creditors? I am having a really hard time believing that is the case. I think he can tell the Uncle the truth, and the Uncle can act to protect himself (record) without anyone having acted to "hinder delay or defraud" creditors. If they were ginning up a deed of trust today for a loan that was made four years ago, its a FC. But that's not at all what happened here.
However, since the recording is defined as a "transfer", and the recording is arguably an event that makes this debtor "insolvent", the 548(a)(1)(B) definition of FC is in play.
I'd argue that there are major problems with that claim. First, 548(a)(1)(B) starts with the requirement that the debtor have recieved less than equivalent value. Here the debtor did recieve equivalent value, in 2007. Next, does the "transfer" (i.e. recording) really make this debtor "insolvent". He is already insolvent. His balance sheet did not change one iota. He already owes the uncle this money, and, I'd argue (without one bit of research, mind you), whether some creditors are secured or unsecured is irrelevant to the issue of whether someone is "insolvent". This PC is insolvent because his assets have dropped in value since 2007, his income dried up and his debts exceed his assets.
So, while I doubt I'll ever get there with this particular case, I still have a big problem seeing this as a strong fraudulent conveyance case, at least conceptually. What worries me is that you seem to think its almost a slam dunk the other way and frankly you have more stripes on your uniform than I do.
Either way, I withdraw my flippant crack remark, but now need to know exactly what "crack, Irish style" is. I'm gonna guess: Shot of Jameson, Corn Beef & Cabbage, pint of Guiness. Not necessarily in that order.
Jeff

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes?

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:33 pm
by Yahoo Bot

B. facts given are no equity when recorded and benefit from Ch7 (Insolvent).
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 9, 2012, at 4:31 PM, "Patrick T. Green" wrote:
> So is it fraudulent under A or B?
>
>
>
> If you have any questions or concerns please contact me.
>
>
>
> Pat
>
>
>
> Patrick T. Green
>
> Attorney at Law
>
> 1010 E. Union St. Suite 206
>
> Pasadena, CA 91106
>
> Tel: 626-449-8433
>
> Fax: 626-449-0565
>
> Email: pat@fitzgreenlaw.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Yahoo
> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 2:49 PM
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Re: Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes?
>
>
>
>
>
> 548(a)(1)(A) & (B) are disjunctive (or), I'm with Dennis and Jon on this one.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Jan 9, 2012, at 1:51 PM, "Patrick T. Green" wrote:
>
>
>
> Dennis, et al:
>
>
>
> 544 requires that the debtor voluntarily or involuntarily n, the uncle is. The statute requires the debtor to be the actor. Any action by the uncle cannot be attributed to the debtor.
>
>
>
> If you have any questions or concerns please contact me.
>
>
>
> Pat
>
>
>
> Patrick T. Green
>
> Attorney at Law
>
> 1010 E. Union St. Suite 206
>
> Pasadena, CA 91106
>
> Tel: 626-449-8433
>
> Fax: 626-449-0565
>
> Email: pat@fitzgreenlaw.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Dennis McGoldrick
> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 12:32 PM
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Re: Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes?
>
>
>
>
>
> I respectfully disagree with my brother Jason, who is probably not on crack.
>
>
>
> From the question:
>
>
>
> "PC would benefit from a Chapter 7 bankruptcy now, but has learned that
> uncle never recorded his $350,000 Deed of Trust. Without the deed, the
> commercial property has equity. With it, it has no equity. PC does not want uncle
> harmed. If uncle records the Deed of Trust now (pre-filing) (sic) is that a "transfer"
> for preference purposes?"
>
>
>
> Since PC is in the middle trying to save Uncle X, he is trying to harm others, i.e. committing a fraud. He is actively trying to get Uncle to record to protect uncle and hurt other creditors.
>
> These actions are direct attemts to hinder, delay and defraud creditors. Also, I stated the wrong statute of limits. Since the trustee has 544 powers, this guy has to wait 4 years to file after he encourages Uncle to file the dot.
>
>
>
> dennis
>
>
>
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, January 8, 2012 6:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Re: Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes?
>
>
>
> PS: If the uncle doesn't record, then the unrecorded deed of trust is subject to avoidance via the trustee's strongarm powers, equal to any hypothetical judgment creditor's rights. If he does record, it is avoidable as a preference for a year, since it is to an insider. After that, it is unavoidable (unless somehow it is proven that the uncle's intent was to hinder, delay or defraud PC's creditors rather than to secure his own loan and perfect his own security interest). At this point, since PC made, executed and delivered the deed of trust years ago, it is not a matter of his intent. >
>
>
> Jason Wallach
>
>
>
> On Jan 8, 2012, at 1:25 PM, vicki temkin wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I haven't ever used it myself, but in law school there was some study about recording nunc pro tunc. Is it available for this
>
> and avoid the fraudulent transfer.
>
>
>
> Vicki L. Temkin
>
> Law Office of Vicki L. Temkin
>
> 15021 Ventura Blvd., Ste. 753
>
> Sherman Oaks, Ca 91403
>
> Ph: (818) 501-4658 / Fx: (818) 501-0903
> www.vtemkinlaw.com
>
>
>
> To: "cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com"
> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2012 6:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Re: Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes?
>
>
>
> I love the crack, Irish style, but record years later and it's a fraudulent conveyance. Try again. Do you seriously think that the consideration issue is the only issue? Any act to hinder, delay or defraud qualifies. 548a1A.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Jan 7, 2012, at 6:28 PM, "jbsesq1965" wrote:
>
>
>
> Holly, you are right. I never read 547(e)(2)(B) before today, and that's EXCATLY what what that says. Thank you very much.
>
> Dennis, you are on crack! The fact pattern was intended to take fraudulent conveyance out of the equation. The uncle ACTUALLY LENT THE MONEY...no fraudulent conveyance...but I love you man! Thanks to all for the really prompt responses on a Saturday.
>
> Jeff Smith
>
> --- In cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com, Kirk Brennan wrote:
> >
> > Have the uncle record. Then wait to file.
> > On Jan 7, 2012 1:42 PM, "Holly Roark" wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't have the case law handy, but I researched this before and I
> > > believe if he records, you should wait a year to file. See
> > > 547(e)(2)(B).
> > >
> > > On 1/7/12, jbsesq1965 wrote:
> > > > Listmates:
> > > >
> > > > PC owns commercial property and in 2007 borrowed $350,000 from his uncle
> > > to
> > > > pay his ex-spouse the final payment owed on a Property Equalization
> > > Judgment
> > > > to conclude that divorce. The transaction is well documented. The PC gave
> > > > his uncle a 2007 notarized Deed of Trust on the commercial property,
> > > > executed a promissory note to uncle and used all of the proceeds to pay
> > > the
> > > > ex-wife. PC made a few years of payments to uncle per the contract, then
> > > > got behind.
> > > >
> > > > PC would benefit from a Chapter 7 bankruptcy now, but has learned that
> > > uncle
> > > > never recorded his $350,000 Deed of Trust. Without the deed, the
> > &g
B. facts given are no equity when recorded and benefit from Ch7 (Insolvent).Sent from my iPhoneOn Jan 9, 2012, at 4:31 PM, "Patrick T. Green" <pat@fitzgreenlaw.com> wrote:

If you have any questions or concerns please contact me. Pat Patrick T. GreenAttorney at Law1010 E. Union St. Suite 206Pasadena, CA 91106Tel: 626-449-8433Fax: 626-449-0565Email: pat@fitzgreenlaw.com From: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com [mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of YahooSent: Monday, January 09, 2012 2:49 PMTo: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [cdcbaa] Re: Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes? 548(a)(1)(A) & (B) are disjunctive (or), I'm with Dennis and Jon on this one.Sent from my iPhoneOn Jan 9, 2012, at 1:51 PM, "Patrick T. Green" <pat@fitzgreenlaw.com> wrote: Dennis, et al:
The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes?

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:31 pm
by Yahoo Bot

charset="UTF-8"
So is it fraudulent under A or B?
If you have any questions or concerns please contact me.
Pat
Patrick T. Green
Attorney at Law
1010 E. Union St. Suite 206
Pasadena, CA 91106
Tel: 626-449-8433
Fax: 626-449-0565
Email: pat@fitzgreenlaw.com

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes?

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 2:49 pm
by Yahoo Bot

548(a)(1)(A) & (B) are disjunctive (or), I'm with Dennis and Jon on this one.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 9, 2012, at 1:51 PM, "Patrick T. Green" wrote:
> Dennis, et al:
>
>
>
> 544 requires that the debtor voluntarily or involuntarily n, the uncle is. The statute requires the debtor to be the actor. Any action by the uncle cannot be attributed to the debtor.
>
>
>
> If you have any questions or concerns please contact me.
>
>
>
> Pat
>
>
>
> Patrick T. Green
>
> Attorney at Law
>
> 1010 E. Union St. Suite 206
>
> Pasadena, CA 91106
>
> Tel: 626-449-8433
>
> Fax: 626-449-0565
>
> Email: pat@fitzgreenlaw.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Dennis McGoldrick
> Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 12:32 PM
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Re: Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes?
>
>
>
>
>
> I respectfully disagree with my brother Jason, who is probably not on crack.
>
>
>
> From the question:
>
>
>
> "PC would benefit from a Chapter 7 bankruptcy now, but has learned that
> uncle never recorded his $350,000 Deed of Trust. Without the deed, the
> commercial property has equity. With it, it has no equity. PC does not want uncle
> harmed. If uncle records the Deed of Trust now (pre-filing) (sic) is that a "transfer"
> for preference purposes?"
>
>
>
> Since PC is in the middle trying to save Uncle X, he is trying to harm others, i.e. committing a fraud. He is actively trying to get Uncle to record to protect uncle and hurt other creditors.
>
> These actions are direct attemts to hinder, delay and defraud creditors. Also, I stated the wrong statute of limits. Since the trustee has 544 powers, this guy has to wait 4 years to file after he encourages Uncle to file the dot.
>
>
>
> dennis
>
>
>
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, January 8, 2012 6:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Re: Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes?
>
>
>
> PS: If the uncle doesn't record, then the unrecorded deed of trust is subject to avoidance via the trustee's strongarm powers, equal to any hypothetical judgment creditor's rights. If he does record, it is avoidable as a preference for a year, since it is to an insider. After that, it is unavoidable (unless somehow it is proven that the uncle's intent was to hinder, delay or defraud PC's creditors rather than to secure his own loan and perfect his own security interest). At this point, since PC made, executed and delivered the deed of trust years ago, it is not a matter of his intent. >
>
>
> Jason Wallach
>
>
>
> On Jan 8, 2012, at 1:25 PM, vicki temkin wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I haven't ever used it myself, but in law school there was some study about recording nunc pro tunc. Is it available for this
>
> and avoid the fraudulent transfer.
>
>
>
> Vicki L. Temkin
>
> Law Office of Vicki L. Temkin
>
> 15021 Ventura Blvd., Ste. 753
>
> Sherman Oaks, Ca 91403
>
> Ph: (818) 501-4658 / Fx: (818) 501-0903
> www.vtemkinlaw.com
>
>
>
> To: "cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com"
> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2012 6:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Re: Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes?
>
>
>
> I love the crack, Irish style, but record years later and it's a fraudulent conveyance. Try again. Do you seriously think that the consideration issue is the only issue? Any act to hinder, delay or defraud qualifies. 548a1A.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Jan 7, 2012, at 6:28 PM, "jbsesq1965" wrote:
>
>
>
> Holly, you are right. I never read 547(e)(2)(B) before today, and that's EXCATLY what what that says. Thank you very much.
>
> Dennis, you are on crack! The fact pattern was intended to take fraudulent conveyance out of the equation. The uncle ACTUALLY LENT THE MONEY...no fraudulent conveyance...but I love you man! Thanks to all for the really prompt responses on a Saturday.
>
> Jeff Smith
>
> --- In cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com, Kirk Brennan wrote:
> >
> > Have the uncle record. Then wait to file.
> > On Jan 7, 2012 1:42 PM, "Holly Roark" wrote:
> >
> > > **
> > >
> > >
> > > I don't have the case law handy, but I researched this before and I
> > > believe if he records, you should wait a year to file. See
> > > 547(e)(2)(B).
> > >
> > > On 1/7/12, jbsesq1965 wrote:
> > > > Listmates:
> > > >
> > > > PC owns commercial property and in 2007 borrowed $350,000 from his uncle
> > > to
> > > > pay his ex-spouse the final payment owed on a Property Equalization
> > > Judgment
> > > > to conclude that divorce. The transaction is well documented. The PC gave
> > > > his uncle a 2007 notarized Deed of Trust on the commercial property,
> > > > executed a promissory note to uncle and used all of the proceeds to pay
> > > the
> > > > ex-wife. PC made a few years of payments to uncle per the contract, then
> > > > got behind.
> > > >
> > > > PC would benefit from a Chapter 7 bankruptcy now, but has learned that
> > > uncle
> > > > never recorded his $350,000 Deed of Trust. Without the deed, the
> > > commercial
> > > > property has equity. With it, it has no equity. PC does not want uncle
> > > > harmed.
> > > >
> > > > If uncle records the Deed of Trust now (pre-filing) is that a "transfer"
> > > for
> > > > preference purposes? I recall that there is law that recording is not an
> > > > element of what constitutes a transfer of an interest in property. Would
> > > > anyone disagree with that?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Jeffrey B. Smith**
> > > > CURD, GALINDO & SMITH, L.L.P.
> > > > 301 East Ocean Blvd. #1700
> > > > Long Beach, CA 90802
> > > > (562) 624-1177
> > > > (562) 624-1178 fax
> > > > www.expertbk.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sent from my mobile device
> > >
> > > Holly Roark
> > > holly@...
> > > www.roarklawoffices.com
> > > Central District of California
> > > Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney
> > > 1875 Century Park East, Suite 600
> > > Los Angeles, CA 90067
> > > T (310) 553-2600
> > > F (310) 553-2601
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
548(a)(1)(A) & (B) are disjunctive (or), I'm with Dennis and Jon on this one.Sent from my iPhoneOn Jan 9, 2012, at 1:51 PM, "Patrick T. Green" <pat@fitzgreenlaw.com> wrote:


The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes?

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:51 pm
by Yahoo Bot

charset="UTF-8"
Dennis, et al:
544 requires that the debtor voluntarily or involuntarily n, the uncle is. The statute requires the debtor to be the actor. Any action by the uncle cannot be attributed to the debtor.
If you have any questions or concerns please contact me.
Pat
Patrick T. Green
Attorney at Law
1010 E. Union St. Suite 206
Pasadena, CA 91106
Tel: 626-449-8433
Fax: 626-449-0565
Email: pat@fitzgreenlaw.com

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes?

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:16 pm
by Yahoo Bot

Recording the deed will be a fraudulent transfer, see 548(d), if within 2 years of petition date and also a preference within one year prepetition, despite that CA law considers it a transfer when the deed was accepted in 2007.
The facts are that debtor is now insolvent so recording triggers 548(a)(1)(B)(ii)(I). No intent required.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 8, 2012, at 6:44 PM, Jason Wallach wrote:
> PS: If the uncle doesn't record, then the unrecorded deed of trust is subject to avoidance via the trustee's strongarm powers, equal to any hypothetical judgment creditor's rights. If he does record, it is avoidable as a preference for a year, since it is to an insider. After that, it is unavoidable (unless somehow it is proven that the uncle's intent was to hinder, delay or defraud PC's creditors rather than to secure his own loan and perfect his own security interest). At this point, since PC made, executed and delivered the deed of trust years ago, it is not a matter of his intent. >
>
> Jason Wallach
>
> On Jan 8, 2012, at 1:25 PM, vicki temkin wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I haven't ever used it myself, but in law school there was some study about recording nunc pro tunc. Is it available for this
>> and avoid the fraudulent transfer.
>>
>> Vicki L. Temkin
>> Law Office of Vicki L. Temkin
>> 15021 Ventura Blvd., Ste. 753
>> Sherman Oaks, Ca 91403
>> Ph: (818) 501-4658 / Fx: (818) 501-0903
>> www.vtemkinlaw.com
>>
>> To: "cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com"
>> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2012 6:45 PM
>> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Re: Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes?
>>
>>
>> I love the crack, Irish style, but record years later and it's a fraudulent conveyance. Try again. Do you seriously think that the consideration issue is the only issue? Any act to hinder, delay or defraud qualifies. 548a1A.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jan 7, 2012, at 6:28 PM, "jbsesq1965" wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Holly, you are right. I never read 547(e)(2)(B) before today, and that's EXCATLY what what that says. Thank you very much.
>>>
>>> Dennis, you are on crack! The fact pattern was intended to take fraudulent conveyance out of the equation. The uncle ACTUALLY LENT THE MONEY...no fraudulent conveyance...but I love you man! Thanks to all for the really prompt responses on a Saturday.
>>>
>>> Jeff Smith
>>>
>>> --- In cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com, Kirk Brennan wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Have the uncle record. Then wait to file.
>>> > On Jan 7, 2012 1:42 PM, "Holly Roark" wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > **
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > I don't have the case law handy, but I researched this before and I
>>> > > believe if he records, you should wait a year to file. See
>>> > > 547(e)(2)(B).
>>> > >
>>> > > On 1/7/12, jbsesq1965 wrote:
>>> > > > Listmates:
>>> > > >
>>> > > > PC owns commercial property and in 2007 borrowed $350,000 from his uncle
>>> > > to
>>> > > > pay his ex-spouse the final payment owed on a Property Equalization
>>> > > Judgment
>>> > > > to conclude that divorce. The transaction is well documented. The PC gave
>>> > > > his uncle a 2007 notarized Deed of Trust on the commercial property,
>>> > > > executed a promissory note to uncle and used all of the proceeds to pay
>>> > > the
>>> > > > ex-wife. PC made a few years of payments to uncle per the contract, then
>>> > > > got behind.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > PC would benefit from a Chapter 7 bankruptcy now, but has learned that
>>> > > uncle
>>> > > > never recorded his $350,000 Deed of Trust. Without the deed, the
>>> > > commercial
>>> > > > property has equity. With it, it has no equity. PC does not want uncle
>>> > > > harmed.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > If uncle records the Deed of Trust now (pre-filing) is that a "transfer"
>>> > > for
>>> > > > preference purposes? I recall that there is law that recording is not an
>>> > > > element of what constitutes a transfer of an interest in property. Would
>>> > > > anyone disagree with that?
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Thanks,
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Jeffrey B. Smith**
>>> > > > CURD, GALINDO & SMITH, L.L.P.
>>> > > > 301 East Ocean Blvd. #1700
>>> > > > Long Beach, CA 90802
>>> > > > (562) 624-1177
>>> > > > (562) 624-1178 fax
>>> > > > www.expertbk.com
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > > >
>>> > >
>>> > > --
>>> > > Sent from my mobile device
>>> > >
>>> > > Holly Roark
>>> > > holly@...
>>> > > www.roarklawoffices.com
>>> > > Central District of California
>>> > > Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney
>>> > > 1875 Century Park East, Suite 600
>>> > > Los Angeles, CA 90067
>>> > > T (310) 553-2600
>>> > > F (310) 553-2601
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Recording the deed will be a fraudulent transfer, see 548(d), if within 2 years of petition date and also a preference within one year prepetition, despite that CA law considers it a transfer when the deed was accepted in 2007. The facts are that debtor is now insolvent so recording triggers 548(a)(1)(B)(ii)(I). No intent required.Sent from my iPhoneOn Jan 8, 2012, at 6:44 PM, Jason Wallach <
The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes?

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:44 pm
by Yahoo Bot

charsetNDOWS-1252;
formatowed;
delsps
PS: If the uncle doesn't record, then the unrecorded deed of trust is
subject to avoidance via the trustee's strongarm powers, equal to any
hypothetical judgment creditor's rights. If he does record, it is
avoidable as a preference for a year, since it is to an insider.
After that, it is unavoidable (unless somehow it is proven that the
uncle's intent was to hinder, delay or defraud PC's creditors rather
than to secure his own loan and perfect his own security interest).
At this point, since PC made, executed and delivered the deed of trust
years ago, it is not a matter of his intent.
Jason Wallach
On Jan 8, 2012, at 1:25 PM, vicki temkin wrote:
>
> I haven't ever used it myself, but in law school there was some
> study about recording nunc pro tunc. Is it available for this
> and avoid the fraudulent transfer.
>
> Vicki L. Temkin
> Law Office of Vicki L. Temkin
> 15021 Ventura Blvd., Ste. 753
> Sherman Oaks, Ca 91403
> Ph: (818) 501-4658 / Fx: (818) 501-0903
> www.vtemkinlaw.com
>
> To: "cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com"
> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2012 6:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Re: Is mere recording a "Transfer" for
> preference purposes?
>
>
> I love the crack, Irish style, but record years later and it's a
> fraudulent conveyance. Try again. Do you seriously think that the
> consideration issue is the only issue? Any act to hinder, delay or
> defraud qualifies. 548a1A.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 7, 2012, at 6:28 PM, "jbsesq1965" wrote:
>
>>
>> Holly, you are right. I never read 547(e)(2)(B) before today, and
>> that's EXCATLY what what that says. Thank you very much.
>>
>> Dennis, you are on crack! The fact pattern was intended to take
>> fraudulent conveyance out of the equation. The uncle ACTUALLY LENT
>> THE MONEY...no fraudulent conveyance...but I love you man! Thanks
>> to all for the really prompt responses on a Saturday.
>>
>> Jeff Smith
>>
>> --- In cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com, Kirk Brennan
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Have the uncle record. Then wait to file.
>> > On Jan 7, 2012 1:42 PM, "Holly Roark" wrote:
>> >
>> > > **
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I don't have the case law handy, but I researched this before
>> and I
>> > > believe if he records, you should wait a year to file. See
>> > > 547(e)(2)(B).
>> > >
>> > > On 1/7/12, jbsesq1965 wrote:
>> > > > Listmates:
>> > > >
>> > > > PC owns commercial property and in 2007 borrowed $350,000
>> from his uncle
>> > > to
>> > > > pay his ex-spouse the final payment owed on a Property
>> Equalization
>> > > Judgment
>> > > > to conclude that divorce. The transaction is well documented.
>> The PC gave
>> > > > his uncle a 2007 notarized Deed of Trust on the commercial
>> property,
>> > > > executed a promissory note to uncle and used all of the
>> proceeds to pay
>> > > the
>> > > > ex-wife. PC made a few years of payments to uncle per the
>> contract, then
>> > > > got behind.
>> > > >
>> > > > PC would benefit from a Chapter 7 bankruptcy now, but has
>> learned that
>> > > uncle
>> > > > never recorded his $350,000 Deed of Trust. Without the deed,
>> the
>> > > commercial
>> > > > property has equity. With it, it has no equity. PC does not
>> want uncle
>> > > > harmed.
>> > > >
>> > > > If uncle records the Deed of Trust now (pre-filing) is that a
>> "transfer"
>> > > for
>> > > > preference purposes? I recall that there is law that
>> recording is not an
>> > > > element of what constitutes a transfer of an interest in
>> property. Would
>> > > > anyone disagree with that?
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks,
>> > > >
>> > > > Jeffrey B. Smith**
>> > > > CURD, GALINDO & SMITH, L.L.P.
>> > > > 301 East Ocean Blvd. #1700
>> > > > Long Beach, CA 90802
>> > > > (562) 624-1177
>> > > > (562) 624-1178 fax
>> > > > www.expertbk.com
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Sent from my mobile device
>> > >
>> > > Holly Roark
>> > > holly@...
>> > > www.roarklawoffices.com
>> > > Central District of California
>> > > Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney
>> > > 1875 Century Park East, Suite 600
>> > > Los Angeles, CA 90067
>> > > T (310) 553-2600
>> > > F (310) 553-2601
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
>
charsetNDOWS-1252
PS: If the uncle doesn't record, then the unrecorded deed of trust is subject to avoidance via the trustee's strongarm powers, equal to any hypothetical judgment creditor's rights. If he does record, it is avoidable as a preference for a year, since it is to an insider. After that, it is unavoidable (unless somehow it is proven that the uncle's intent was to hinder, delay or defraud PC's creditors rather than to secure his own loan and perfect his own security interest). At this point, since PC made, executed and delivered the deed of trust years ago, it is not a matter of his intent. Jason WallachOn Jan 8, 2012, at 1:25 PM, vicki temkin wrote:
The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes?

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:20 pm
by Yahoo Bot

It is a fraudulent transfer. When I was a trustee I saw it all the time. Mom loans money to son and sonny wants mommy to record her TD right before filing. Of course, the TD is five years old, but mommy never recorded it cause it would have hurt sonny's credit report.
This is very common and trustee wins.
D
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 8, 2012, at 1:25 PM, vicki temkin wrote:
> I haven't ever used it myself, but in law school there was some study about recording nunc pro tunc. Is it available for this
> and avoid the fraudulent transfer.
>
> Vicki L. Temkin
> Law Office of Vicki L. Temkin
> 15021 Ventura Blvd., Ste. 753
> Sherman Oaks, Ca 91403
> Ph: (818) 501-4658 / Fx: (818) 501-0903
> www.vtemkinlaw.com
>
> To: "cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com"
> Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2012 6:45 PM
> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Re: Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes?
>
>
> I love the crack, Irish style, but record years later and it's a fraudulent conveyance. Try again. Do you seriously think that the consideration issue is the only issue? Any act to hinder, delay or defraud qualifies. 548a1A.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 7, 2012, at 6:28 PM, "jbsesq1965" wrote:
>
>>
>> Holly, you are right. I never read 547(e)(2)(B) before today, and that's EXCATLY what what that says. Thank you very much.
>>
>> Dennis, you are on crack! The fact pattern was intended to take fraudulent conveyance out of the equation. The uncle ACTUALLY LENT THE MONEY...no fraudulent conveyance...but I love you man! Thanks to all for the really prompt responses on a Saturday.
>>
>> Jeff Smith
>>
>> --- In cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com, Kirk Brennan wrote:
>> >
>> > Have the uncle record. Then wait to file.
>> > On Jan 7, 2012 1:42 PM, "Holly Roark" wrote:
>> >
>> > > **
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I don't have the case law handy, but I researched this before and I
>> > > believe if he records, you should wait a year to file. See
>> > > 547(e)(2)(B).
>> > >
>> > > On 1/7/12, jbsesq1965 wrote:
>> > > > Listmates:
>> > > >
>> > > > PC owns commercial property and in 2007 borrowed $350,000 from his uncle
>> > > to
>> > > > pay his ex-spouse the final payment owed on a Property Equalization
>> > > Judgment
>> > > > to conclude that divorce. The transaction is well documented. The PC gave
>> > > > his uncle a 2007 notarized Deed of Trust on the commercial property,
>> > > > executed a promissory note to uncle and used all of the proceeds to pay
>> > > the
>> > > > ex-wife. PC made a few years of payments to uncle per the contract, then
>> > > > got behind.
>> > > >
>> > > > PC would benefit from a Chapter 7 bankruptcy now, but has learned that
>> > > uncle
>> > > > never recorded his $350,000 Deed of Trust. Without the deed, the
>> > > commercial
>> > > > property has equity. With it, it has no equity. PC does not want uncle
>> > > > harmed.
>> > > >
>> > > > If uncle records the Deed of Trust now (pre-filing) is that a "transfer"
>> > > for
>> > > > preference purposes? I recall that there is law that recording is not an
>> > > > element of what constitutes a transfer of an interest in property. Would
>> > > > anyone disagree with that?
>> > > >
>> > > > Thanks,
>> > > >
>> > > > Jeffrey B. Smith**
>> > > > CURD, GALINDO & SMITH, L.L.P.
>> > > > 301 East Ocean Blvd. #1700
>> > > > Long Beach, CA 90802
>> > > > (562) 624-1177
>> > > > (562) 624-1178 fax
>> > > > www.expertbk.com
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Sent from my mobile device
>> > >
>> > > Holly Roark
>> > > holly@...
>> > > www.roarklawoffices.com
>> > > Central District of California
>> > > Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney
>> > > 1875 Century Park East, Suite 600
>> > > Los Angeles, CA 90067
>> > > T (310) 553-2600
>> > > F (310) 553-2601
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
It is a fraudulent transfer. When I was a trustee I saw it all the time. Mom loans money to son and sonny wants mommy to record her TD right before filing. Of course, the TD is five years old, but mommy never recorded it cause it would have hurt sonny's credit report. This is very common and trustee wins. DSent from my iPhoneOn Jan 8, 2012, at 1:25 PM, vicki temkin <Vtemkin@yahoo.com> wrote:


The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes?

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:25 pm
by Yahoo Bot

I haven't ever used it myself, but in law school there was some study about recording nunc pro tunc. Is it available for this
and avoid the fraudulent transfer.
Vicki L. Temkin
Law Office of Vicki L. Temkin
15021 Ventura Blvd., Ste. 753
Sherman Oaks, Ca 91403
Ph:(818) 501-4658 /Fx:(818) 501-0903
www.vtemkinlaw.com
>________________________________
>To: "cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com"
>Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2012 6:45 PM
>Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Re: Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes?
>
>
>
>I love the crack, Irish style, but record years later and it's a fraudulent conveyance. Try again. Do you seriously think that the consideration issue is the only issue? Any act to hinder, delay or defraud qualifies. 548a1A.
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>On Jan 7, 2012, at 6:28 PM, "jbsesq1965" wrote:
>
>
>
>>Holly, you are right. I never read 547(e)(2)(B) before today, and that's EXCATLY what what that says. Thank you very much.
>>
>>Dennis, you are on crack! The fact pattern was intended to take fraudulent conveyance out of the equation. The uncle ACTUALLY LENT THE MONEY...no fraudulent conveyance...but I love you man! Thanks to all for the really prompt responses on a Saturday.
>>
>>Jeff Smith
>>
>>--- In cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com, Kirk Brennan wrote:
>>>
>>> Have the uncle record. Then wait to file.
>>> On Jan 7, 2012 1:42 PM, "Holly Roark" wrote:
>>>
>>> > **
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I don't have the case law handy, but I researched this before and I
>>> > believe if he records, you should wait a year to file. See
>>> > 547(e)(2)(B).
>>> >
>>> > On 1/7/12, jbsesq1965 wrote:
>>> > > Listmates:
>>> > >
>>> > > PC owns commercial property and in 2007 borrowed $350,000 from his uncle
>>> > to
>>> > > pay his ex-spouse the final payment owed on a Property Equalization
>>> > Judgment
>>> > > to conclude that divorce. The transaction is well documented. The PC gave
>>> > > his uncle a 2007 notarized Deed of Trust on the commercial property,
>>> > > executed a promissory note to uncle and used all of the proceeds to pay
>>> > the
>>> > > ex-wife. PC made a few years of payments to uncle per the contract, then
>>> > > got behind.
>>> > >
>>> > > PC would benefit from a Chapter 7 bankruptcy now, but has learned that
>>> > uncle
>>> > > never recorded his $350,000 Deed of Trust. Without the deed, the
>>> > commercial
>>> > > property has equity. With it, it has no equity. PC does not want uncle
>>> > > harmed.
>>> > >
>>> > > If uncle records the Deed of Trust now (pre-filing) is that a "transfer"
>>> > for
>>> > > preference purposes? I recall that there is law that recording is not an
>>> > > element of what constitutes a transfer of an interest in property. Would
>>> > > anyone disagree with that?
>>> > >
>>> > > Thanks,
>>> > >
>>> > > Jeffrey B. Smith**
>>> > > CURD, GALINDO & SMITH, L.L.P.
>>> > > 301 East Ocean Blvd. #1700
>>> > > Long Beach, CA 90802
>>> > > (562) 624-1177
>>> > > (562) 624-1178 fax
>>> > > www.expertbk.com
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Sent from my mobile device
>>> >
>>> > Holly Roark
>>> > holly@...
>>> > www.roarklawoffices.com
>>> > Central District of California
>>> > Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney
>>> > 1875 Century Park East, Suite 600
>>> > Los Angeles, CA 90067
>>> > T (310) 553-2600
>>> > F (310) 553-2601
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Is mere recording a "Transfer" for preference purposes?

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:12 am
by Yahoo Bot

There must be no snow for 500 miles for Dennis to be making so many posts this weekend. D? are you in the mountains doing this on your iphone? You're stuck doing this because Jeff didn't believe me. Jon
>
> I love the crack, Irish style, but record years later and it's a fraudulent conveyance. Try again. Do you seriously think that the consideration issue is the only issue? Any act to hinder, delay or defraud qualifies. 548a1A.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jan 7, 2012, at 6:28 PM, "jbsesq1965" wrote:
>
> > Holly, you are right. I never read 547(e)(2)(B) before today, and that's EXCATLY what what that says. Thank you very much.
> >
> > Dennis, you are on crack! The fact pattern was intended to take fraudulent conveyance out of the equation. The uncle ACTUALLY LENT THE MONEY...no fraudulent conveyance...but I love you man! Thanks to all for the really prompt responses on a Saturday.
> >
> > Jeff Smith
> >
> > --- In cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com, Kirk Brennan wrote:
> > >
> > > Have the uncle record. Then wait to file.
> > > On Jan 7, 2012 1:42 PM, "Holly Roark" wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I don't have the case law handy, but I researched this before and I
> > > > believe if he records, you should wait a year to file. See
> > > > 547(e)(2)(B).
> > > >

The post was migrated from Yahoo.