Hello Shannon:
There is no notice of the lien unless the IRS records a notice in the
proper place. There is a state statute (in the Government Code, if I
recall correctly - I always have to look this up) directing the IRS as
to where it needs to file its notice of federal tax lien, depending on
whether the taxpayer is an individual or a corporation, and whether the
notice goes to real property or personal property.
I think that a lien notice against personal property of an individual is
recorded with the county recorder, but I recommend looking it up - it
could be with the secretary of state.
Your methods 1, 3, and 4 below are not ways the IRS can issue a lien,
but rather are ways that a taxpayer can find out that the IRS has issued
a notice of federal tax lien.
If there is a lien notice filed, be sure to look at it and determine
whether it is against personal or real property.
A notice of intent to levy is an entirely different animal, and doesn't
affect whether there is a notice of federal tax lien.
- John D. Faucher
818/889-8080
On 9/30/12 7:43 AM, Shannon Doyle wrote:
>
> Thank you John. I have seen 4 ways the IRS issues a lien: 1.
> Reported on the credit report; 2. Recorded with the County; 3. Stated
> on the account transcripts "notice of lien" and/or 4. Debtor
> receives a "notice of lien" in the mail. If any of these four occur
> then there is a lien on all property, correct? Is there any other
> documentation I should check for a lien? If none of these occur then
> no lien (except for the automatic lien situation you described below
> which I misunderstood). What if debtor received a "notice of intent
> to levy" but no lien is issued? Does this change the lien analysis?
>
> Shannon A. Doyle
>
> Attorney at Law
>
> small logo
>
> 100 N. Barranca Avenue, Suite 250
>
> West Covina, CA 91791-1600
>
> Tel: (626) 646-2555
>
> Fax: (626) 332-8644
>
>
www.blclaw.com
>
> *From:*
cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com] *On
> Behalf Of *John D. Faucher
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 29, 2012 4:21 PM
> *To:*
cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [cdcbaa] IRS Automatic Lien
>
> Hello Shannon -
> The automatic lien does not destroy the chapter 7 trustee's powers; he
> stands in the shoes of a judgment creditor, and a lien without notice
> doesn't withstand that. You need to check whether the IRS issued
> notices of federal tax lien; if it didn't, then the discharge gets rid
> of the tax debt, period. Effectively, the trustee takes legal title to
> the 401k, and gives it back to the debtor, free and clear of liens
> except those that a judgment creditor can't overcome. The IRS can't
> assert the silent lien after a discharge.
> - John D. Faucher
> 818/889-8080
>
>
>
> On 9/29/12 3:19 PM, Shannon Doyle wrote:
>
> Debtor owes the IRS $110k. The underlying tax debt is
> dischargeable; however debtor has a 401(k) worth $140k (his life
> savings). Since the IRS has an automatic lien on all property of
> the debtor if payment is not made (or arrangements to pay) within
> 10 days of the initial tax demand, a Ch7 discharge will not
> protect the 401(k). Debtor is approaching retirement age. Ch13
> is not feasible.
>
> Is it a certainty that he IRS will exercise its automatic lien?
> Does it make any difference if the account transcripts do not
> indicate "notice of lien"?
>
> Debtor claims he never got notice of the IRS audit that he owed
> this tax debt. He filed a petition with tax court but it was
> denied as untimely (because he didn't have notice). Any tax
> experts have a solution for this debtor?
>
> Shannon A. Doyle
>
> Attorney at Law
>
> small logo
>
> 100 N. Barranca Avenue, Suite 250
>
> West Covina, CA 91791-1600
>
> Tel: (626) 646-2555
>
> Fax: (626) 332-8644
>
>
www.blclaw.com
>
>
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