Central District Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney's Association

Chapter 3, exclusions from income, of pub 519, but that is probably a nonissue for BK purposes. I think the exclusion from taxability has to do with a treaty rather than residency which I have not researched. However, if I have a personal interest bearing bank account in a NY bank, I do not think I have to file a NY tax return and a CA tax return. Consequently, treatment has to be different for BK purposes.
Bert Kawahara
> On Jun 17, 2014, at 1:03 PM, "John Faucher j.d.faucher@sbcglobal.net [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>
> I can't find anything in Pub 519 that puts the residence of the owner as the location of the account. In fact, it says that interest income is deemed to come from the residence of the payer; this suggests that the money generated by an account's interest is sourced from the payer rather than where the payee/taxpayer lives.
> Bert, in your case, even though you've never been to Texas, venue in your personal bankruptcy case would be appropriate there assuming that the account was your principal asset in the U.S.
>
>
> On Tuesday, June 17, 2014 8:33 AM, "BKYahoo bertkawahara@yahoo.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>
>
>
> This rule deals with nonresident aliens. IRS pub 519. However, maybe it has to do with a tax treaty rather than residency and IRS publications can no longer be relied upon. This law was probably changed with the antiterrorism banking laws. My mistake.
>
> A business bank account is different per pub 519.
> BTW, my bank statement shows a bank address in TX. Never been there. Maybe venue is wherever the bank has a branch?
>
> Bert Kawahara
>
>> On Jun 16, 2014, at 10:28 PM, "cdcbaa cdcbaamailbox@gmail.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>>
>>
>> Bert:
>> If that is the rule, it would affect venue. Where did you find that rule?
>>
>> d
>>
>> Dennis McGoldrick, 350 S. Crenshaw Bl., #A207B, Torrance, Ca 90503 310-328-1001-voice
>>
>>
>>> On Jun 13, 2014, at 7:32 AM, "bert Yahoo bertkawahara@yahoo.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> For income tax purposes, I think an FDIC bank account is considered located where the owner lives. If true, does this affect venue for bankruptcy ?
>>>
>>> Sent from iphone Bert Kawahara
>>>
>>>> On Jun 12, 2014, at 7:54 PM, "cdcbaa cdcbaamailbox@gmail.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do not suborn prejury. Venue is proper where the principal assets of the debtor are located in the USA, 28 USC 1408, so the bank account gives venue, but the trick is to hand file the case.
>>>>
>>>> Ecf won't take a case with an address outside the district, so you must hand file the case so the clerks can override the system.
>>>>
>>>> The first clerk will balk, but you must ask for a supervisor and have your code with you. I have insisted the clerks file the cases with an address outside the district and by standing my guns, have gotten them to file the cases.
>>>>
>>>> d
>>>>
>>>> Dennis McGoldrick, 350 S. Crenshaw Bl., #A207B, Torrance, Ca 90503 310-328-1001-voice
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 12, 2014, at 3:59 PM, "'Mark J. Markus' bklawr@yahoo.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Great question. I've filed a bunch of these over the years and always wondered if I could just use my office address for the client. Here are my ramblings on the subject.
>>>>>
>>>>> Venue is established by the property located in the USA, not the residence, so it shouldn't affect that.
>>>>>
>>>>> The proper address to put there, of course, is the street address where the debtor resides in the foreign country and then, hopefully, a mailing address in the USA. But that wasn't your question.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know that there is any requirement that the debtor even have a "street address", except that now--due to the advent of ECF--it may be a technological requirement. I've had literally homeless clients before, living out of their cars, but to avoid hassles I usually have them put down the address of a friend (which is usually where they get their mail).
>>>>>
>>>>> My belief is that you should be able to use your office address for the client's street address (perhaps putting c/o), but as I mentioned, I'm not so sure that's even necessary. You could use your office address as the mailing address for sure.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you do that, I would attach a sheet that explains why you're using your office address. Worst case scenario is you need to amend the petition.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope this helps
>>>>>
>>>>> *************************
>>>>> Mark J. Markus
>>>>> Law Office of Mark J. Markus
>>>>> Mailing Address Only:
>>>>> 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
>>>>> Studio City, CA 91604-2652
>>>>> (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
>>>>> web: http://www.bklaw.com/
>>>>> Certified Bankruptcy Law Specialist--The State Bar of California Board of Legal Specialization
>>>>> This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>> NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
>>>>> IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication.
>>>>> On 6/12/2014 3:49 PM, Giovanni Orantes go@gobklaw.com [cdcbaa] wrote:
>>>>>> I have a client who lives overseas but has a judgment against him here in the U.S. and wants to discharge it. He has some money in a bank account in California and still has his California driver's license. However, he does not currently have a residence in the U.S. He would travel here for the 341(a) meeting etc. Does anybody see any problems letting him use my office address for the petition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Giovanni Orantes, Esq.*
>>>>>> Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
>>>>>> 3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 2920
>>>>>> Los Angeles, CA 90010
>>>>>> Tel: (213) 389-4362
>>>>>> Fax: (877) 789-5776
>>>>>> e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
>>>>>> website: www.gobklaw.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Board Certified - Business Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
>>>>>> *Board Certified - Consumer Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
>>>>>> Commercial Litigation
>>>>>> Estate Planning
>>>>>> Outside General Counsel
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY, RIVERSIDE, SAN BERNARDINO AND SANTA BARBARA AND THE WORLD FOR CHAPTER 11 AND 15 CASES.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note: The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us by telephone or e-mail and delete the original e-mail at (213) 389-4362 or (888) 619-8222.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with requirements imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
>
>
>
>

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

I can't find anything in Pub 519 that puts the residence of the owner as the location of the account. In fact, it says that interest income is deemed to come from the residence of the payer; this suggests that the money generated by an account's interest is sourced from the payer rather than where the payee/taxpayer lives.
Bert, in your case, even though you've never been to Texas, venue in your personal bankruptcy case would be appropriate there assuming that the account was your principal asset in the U.S.
On Tuesday, June 17, 2014 8:33 AM, "BKYahoo bertkawahara@yahoo.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
This rule deals with nonresident aliens. IRS pub 519. However, maybe it has to do with a tax treaty rather than residency and IRS publications can no longer be relied upon. This law was probably changed with the antiterrorism banking laws. My mistake.
A business bank account is different per pub 519.
BTW, my bank statement shows a bank address in TX. Never been there.
Bert Kawahara
On Jun 16, 2014, at 10:28 PM, "cdcbaa cdcbaamailbox@gmail.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>Bert:
>If that is the rule, it would affect venue. Where did you find that rule?
>
>
>d
>
>Dennis McGoldrick, 350 S. Crenshaw Bl., #A207B, Torrance, Ca 90503 310-328-1001-voice
>
>On Jun 13, 2014, at 7:32 AM, "bert Yahoo bertkawahara@yahoo.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>
>
>
>>For income tax purposes, I think an FDIC bank account is considered located where the owner lives. If true, does this affect venue for bankruptcy ?
>>
>>Sent from iphone Bert Kawahara
>>
>>On Jun 12, 2014, at 7:54 PM, "cdcbaa cdcbaamailbox@gmail.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Do not suborn prejury. Venue is proper where the principal assets of the debtor are located in the USA, 28 USC 1408, so the bank account gives venue, but the trick is to hand file the case.
>>>
>>>
>>>Ecf won't take a case with an address outside the district, so you must hand file the case so the clerks can override the system.
>>>
>>>
>>>The first clerk will balk, but you must ask for a supervisor and have your code with you. I have insisted the clerks file the cases with an address outside the district and by standing my guns, have gotten them to file the cases.
>>>
>>>
>>>d
>>>
>>>Dennis McGoldrick, 350 S. Crenshaw Bl., #A207B, Torrance, Ca 90503 >>>
>>>On Jun 12, 2014, at 3:59 PM, "'Mark J. Markus' bklawr@yahoo.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Great question. I've filed a bunch of these over the years and always wondered if I could just use my office address for the client.>>>>
>>>>Venue is established by the property located in the USA, not the
residence, so it shouldn't affect that.
>>>>
>>>>The proper address to put there, of course, is the street
address where the debtor resides in the foreign country and
then, hopefully, a mailing address in the USA. But that wasn't
your question.
>>>>
>>>>I don't know that there is any requirement that the debtor even
have a "street address", except that now--due to the advent of
ECF--it may be a technological requirement. I've had literally
homeless clients before, living out of their cars, but to avoid
hassles I usually have them put down the address of a friend
(which is usually where they get their mail).
>>>>
>>>>My belief is that you should be able to use your office address
for the client's street address (perhaps putting c/o), but as I
mentioned, I'm not so sure that's even necessary. You could use
your office address as the mailing address for sure.
>>>>
>>>>If you do that, I would attach a sheet that explains why you're
using your office address. Worst case scenario is you need to
amend the petition.
>>>>
>>>>Hope this helps
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>*************************
>>>>Mark J. Markus
>>>>Law Office of Mark J. Markus
>>>>Mailing Address Only:
>>>>11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
>>>>Studio City, CA 91604-2652
>>>>(818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
>>>>web: http://www.bklaw.com/
>>>>Certified Bankruptcy Law Specialist--The State Bar of
California Board of Legal Specialization
>>>>This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
>>>>________________________________________________
>>>>NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the
law office of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The
information is intended for the use of the addressee only. If
you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy,
distribution or use of the contents of this message is
prohibited.
>>>>IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with
requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S.
tax advice contained in this communication (or in any
attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot
be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the
Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or
recommending to another party any transaction or matter
addressed in this communication.
On 6/12/2014 3:49 PM, Giovanni Orantes go@gobklaw.com [cdcbaa] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>I have a client who lives overseas but has a judgment against him here in the U.S. and wants to discharge it. He has some money in a bank account in California and still has his California driver's license. However, he does not currently have a residence in the U.S. He would travel here for the 341(a) meeting etc. Does anybody see any problems letting him use my office address for the petition.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Giovanni Orantes, Esq.*
>>>>>Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
>>>>>3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 2920
>>>>>Los Angeles, CA 90010
>>>>>Tel: (213) 389-4362
>>>>>Fax: (877) 789-5776
>>>>>e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
>>>>>website: www.gobklaw.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>*Board Certified - Business Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
>>>>>
>>>>>*Board Certified - Consumer Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
>>>>>
>>>>>Commercial Litigation
>>>>>Estate Planning
>>>>>Outside General Counsel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
>>>>>
>>>>>SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY,
RIVERSIDE, SAN BERNARDINO AND SANTA BARBARA AND THE WORLD
FOR CHAPTER 11 AND 15 CASES.
>>>>>
>>>>>Note: The information contained in this e-mail message is
confidential information intended only for the use of the
individual or entity named. If the reader of this message
is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for
delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of
this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this communication in error, please immediately
notify us by telephone or e-mail and delete the original
e-mail at (213) 389-4362 or (888) 619-8222.
>>>>>
>>>>>IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with
requirements imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we
inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this
communication (including any attachments) is not intended
to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i)
avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii)
promoting, marketing, or recommending to another party any
transaction or matter addressed herein.
>>>>>
>>>>

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

This rule deals with nonresident aliens. IRS pub 519. However, maybe it has to do with a tax treaty rather than residency and IRS publications can no longer be relied upon. This law was probably changed with the antiterrorism banking laws. My mistake.
A business bank account is different per pub 519.
BTW, my bank statement shows a bank address in TX. Never been there. Maybe venue is wherever the bank has a branch?
Bert Kawahara
> On Jun 16, 2014, at 10:28 PM, "cdcbaa cdcbaamailbox@gmail.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>
> Bert:
> If that is the rule, it would affect venue. Where did you find that rule?
>
> d
>
> Dennis McGoldrick, 350 S. Crenshaw Bl., #A207B, Torrance, Ca 90503 310-328-1001-voice
>
>
>> On Jun 13, 2014, at 7:32 AM, "bert Yahoo bertkawahara@yahoo.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>>
>>
>> For income tax purposes, I think an FDIC bank account is considered located where the owner lives. If true, does this affect venue for bankruptcy ?
>>
>> Sent from iphone Bert Kawahara
>>
>>> On Jun 12, 2014, at 7:54 PM, "cdcbaa cdcbaamailbox@gmail.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Do not suborn prejury. Venue is proper where the principal assets of the debtor are located in the USA, 28 USC 1408, so the bank account gives venue, but the trick is to hand file the case.
>>>
>>> Ecf won't take a case with an address outside the district, so you must hand file the case so the clerks can override the system.
>>>
>>> The first clerk will balk, but you must ask for a supervisor and have your code with you. I have insisted the clerks file the cases with an address outside the district and by standing my guns, have gotten them to file the cases.
>>>
>>> d
>>>
>>> Dennis McGoldrick, 350 S. Crenshaw Bl., #A207B, Torrance, Ca 90503 310-328-1001-voice
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jun 12, 2014, at 3:59 PM, "'Mark J. Markus' bklawr@yahoo.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Great question. I've filed a bunch of these over the years and always wondered if I could just use my office address for the client. Here are my ramblings on the subject.
>>>>
>>>> Venue is established by the property located in the USA, not the residence, so it shouldn't affect that.
>>>>
>>>> The proper address to put there, of course, is the street address where the debtor resides in the foreign country and then, hopefully, a mailing address in the USA. But that wasn't your question.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know that there is any requirement that the debtor even have a "street address", except that now--due to the advent of ECF--it may be a technological requirement. I've had literally homeless clients before, living out of their cars, but to avoid hassles I usually have them put down the address of a friend (which is usually where they get their mail).
>>>>
>>>> My belief is that you should be able to use your office address for the client's street address (perhaps putting c/o), but as I mentioned, I'm not so sure that's even necessary. You could use your office address as the mailing address for sure.
>>>>
>>>> If you do that, I would attach a sheet that explains why you're using your office address. Worst case scenario is you need to amend the petition.
>>>>
>>>> Hope this helps
>>>>
>>>> *************************
>>>> Mark J. Markus
>>>> Law Office of Mark J. Markus
>>>> Mailing Address Only:
>>>> 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
>>>> Studio City, CA 91604-2652
>>>> (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
>>>> web: http://www.bklaw.com/
>>>> Certified Bankruptcy Law Specialist--The State Bar of California Board of Legal Specialization
>>>> This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>> NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
>>>> IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication.
>>>> On 6/12/2014 3:49 PM, Giovanni Orantes go@gobklaw.com [cdcbaa] wrote:
>>>>> I have a client who lives overseas but has a judgment against him here in the U.S. and wants to discharge it. He has some money in a bank account in California and still has his California driver's license. However, he does not currently have a residence in the U.S. He would travel here for the 341(a) meeting etc. Does anybody see any problems letting him use my office address for the petition.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Giovanni Orantes, Esq.*
>>>>> Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
>>>>> 3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 2920
>>>>> Los Angeles, CA 90010
>>>>> Tel: (213) 389-4362
>>>>> Fax: (877) 789-5776
>>>>> e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
>>>>> website: www.gobklaw.com
>>>>>
>>>>> *Board Certified - Business Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
>>>>> *Board Certified - Consumer Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
>>>>> Commercial Litigation
>>>>> Estate Planning
>>>>> Outside General Counsel
>>>>>
>>>>> WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
>>>>>
>>>>> SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY, RIVERSIDE, SAN BERNARDINO AND SANTA BARBARA AND THE WORLD FOR CHAPTER 11 AND 15 CASES.
>>>>>
>>>>> Note: The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us by telephone or e-mail and delete the original e-mail at (213) 389-4362 or (888) 619-8222.
>>>>>
>>>>> IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with requirements imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
>
>

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Gio:
Have you ever seen a bank account that was in the cloud? I haven't. There is always an address for the account.
When do you think we will cross the line and only have a promise to pay from a big bank with no real location?
d
Dennis McGoldrick, 350 S. Crenshaw Bl., #A207B, Torrance, Ca 90503 310-328-1001-voice
> On Jun 13, 2014, at 5:24 PM, "Giovanni Orantes go@gobklaw.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>
> But where are bank accounts located nowadays? If you open an account online, you never set foot in a brick and mortar location. The only thing that is likely certain is that the account is in the United States.
>
>
>> On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 5:18 PM, John Faucher j.d.faucher@sbcglobal.net [cdcbaa] wrote:
>>
>> I have a little trouble with the concept of a bank account being located for "income tax purposes" in a different locus than the branch it was deposited into. Does anyone have authority for this statement?
>> U.S. taxation is generally based on the person, not the location of the assets. A U.S. citizen is taxed on all income earned anyplace in the world. The Canadian resident, U.S. citizen is taxed the same on his Canadian, Swiss, and U.S. accounts (assuming he reports the income from each).
>> Assuming that the bank account follows the residence of the owner for tax purposes, which is just speculation to me so far, nothing about that rule says that the account follows the owner for purposes of bankruptcy venue. I would assume that the bank account is located where the bank is, until proven otherwise.
>> - John D. Faucher
>> 818/889-8080
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, June 13, 2014 1:39 PM, "Michael Avanesian michael@avanesianlaw.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> The first question is whether the case can be filed in the U.S., the answer to that question is "yes" and is located in section 109. Case law says a bank account with some money in it is enough assets.
>>
>> Gio's question is then, what address should be put on the petition, in particular if he can use his office as the address of the Debtor, the answer is "no" -- go force the clerk to accept the Debtor's real address. The answer to this comes from -d's knowledge and experience and because if the question says "where do you live?" you purger yourself if you write you live in your attorney's office when you don't.
>>
>> Venue made me get an A- in civ pro so I still have trouble with it. Bert raises the question of where is the proper venue. In particular, if the account is considered located where the owner lives for income tax purposes (I have not verified this, but if I live in Canada and earn interest from my bank account whose only branch is in California, does the IRS not tax me on that income since it was earned where I live, Canada? Seems strange.)
>>
>> I think you file the petition where it is most convenient for the parties, i.e. probably in the district of the court where the judgment was entered. Could one file in the district where the attorney is located based on the fact that the unearned retainer is located there and is the only US asset? I think the answer is certainly yes in a Chapter 11 where there is postpetition retainer remaining. I think the answer is a stretch for a Chapter 7. Of course, none of this is an issue unless there is a venue challenge, right?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Michael Avanesian
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 7:32 AM, bert Yahoo bertkawahara@yahoo.com [cdcbaa] wrote:
>>
>> For income tax purposes, I think an FDIC bank account is considered located where the owner lives. If true, does this affect venue for bankruptcy ?
>>
>> Sent from iphone Bert Kawahara
>>
>>> On Jun 12, 2014, at 7:54 PM, "cdcbaa cdcbaamailbox@gmail.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Do not suborn prejury. Venue is proper where the principal assets of the debtor are located in the USA, 28 USC 1408, so the bank account gives venue, but the trick is to hand file the case.
>>>
>>> Ecf won't take a case with an address outside the district, so you must hand file the case so the clerks can override the system.
>>>
>>> The first clerk will balk, but you must ask for a supervisor and have your code with you. I have insisted the clerks file the cases with an address outside the district and by standing my guns, have gotten them to file the cases.
>>>
>>> d
>>>
>>> Dennis McGoldrick, 350 S. Crenshaw Bl., #A207B, Torrance, Ca 90503 310-328-1001-voice
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jun 12, 2014, at 3:59 PM, "'Mark J. Markus' bklawr@yahoo.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Great question. I've filed a bunch of these over the years and always wondered if I could just use my office address for the client. Here are my ramblings on the subject.
>>>>
>>>> Venue is established by the property located in the USA, not the residence, so it shouldn't affect that.
>>>>
>>>> The proper address to put there, of course, is the street address where the debtor resides in the foreign country and then, hopefully, a mailing address in the USA. But that wasn't your question.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know that there is any requirement that the debtor even have a "street address", except that now--due to the advent of ECF--it may be a technological requirement. I've had literally homeless clients before, living out of their cars, but to avoid hassles I usually have them put down the address of a friend (which is usually where they get their mail).
>>>>
>>>> My belief is that you should be able to use your office address for the client's street address (perhaps putting c/o), but as I mentioned, I'm not so sure that's even necessary. You could use your office address as the mailing address for sure.
>>>>
>>>> If you do that, I would attach a sheet that explains why you're using your office address. Worst case scenario is you need to amend the petition.
>>>>
>>>> Hope this helps
>>>>
>>>> *************************
>>>> Mark J. Markus
>>>> Law Office of Mark J. Markus
>>>> Mailing Address Only:
>>>> 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
>>>> Studio City, CA 91604-2652
>>>> (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
>>>> web: http://www.bklaw.com/
>>>> Certified Bankruptcy Law Specialist--The State Bar of California Board of Legal Specialization
>>>> This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>> NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
>>>> IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication.
>>>> On 6/12/2014 3:49 PM, Giovanni Orantes go@gobklaw.com [cdcbaa] wrote:
>>>>> I have a client who lives overseas but has a judgment against him here in the U.S. and wants to discharge it. He has some money in a bank account in California and still has his California driver's license. However, he does not currently have a residence in the U.S. He would travel here for the 341(a) meeting etc. Does anybody see any problems letting him use my office address for the petition.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Giovanni Orantes, Esq.*
>>>>> Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
>>>>> 3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 2920
>>>>> Los Angeles, CA 90010
>>>>> Tel: (213) 389-4362
>>>>> Fax: (877) 789-5776
>>>>> e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
>>>>> website: www.gobklaw.com
>>>>>
>>>>> *Board Certified - Business Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
>>>>> *Board Certified - Consumer Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
>>>>> Commercial Litigation
>>>>> Estate Planning
>>>>> Outside General Counsel
>>>>>
>>>>> WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
>>>>>
>>>>> SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY, RIVERSIDE, SAN BERNARDINO AND SANTA BARBARA AND THE WORLD FOR CHAPTER 11 AND 15 CASES.
>>>>>
>>>>> Note: The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us by telephone or e-mail and delete the original e-mail at (213) 389-4362 or (888) 619-8222.
>>>>>
>>>>> IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with requirements imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
>
>
>
> --
> Giovanni Orantes, Esq.*
> Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
> 3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 2920
> Los Angeles, CA 90010
> Tel: (213) 389-4362
> Fax: (877) 789-5776
> e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
> website: www.gobklaw.com
>
> *Board Certified - Business Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
> *Board Certified - Consumer Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
> Commercial Litigation
> Estate Planning
> Outside General Counsel
>
> WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
>
> SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY, RIVERSIDE, SAN BERNARDINO AND SANTA BARBARA AND THE WORLD FOR CHAPTER 11 AND 15 CASES.
>
> Note: The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us by telephone or e-mail and delete the original e-mail >
> IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with requirements imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
>

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Mike:
I am sorry to contradict you, but venue is statutory. There are some minimum contacts cases, and venue conflict cases which might lead you to believe that venue is were the litigation is most convenient to the parties, but that is not in the statute. 28 USC 1408 is the basis for venue and the bases are: domicile, residence, principal place of business, or principal assets in the USA. Convenience is not listed and cannot grant venue.
d
Dennis McGoldrick, 350 S. Crenshaw Bl., #A207B, Torrance, Ca 90503 310-328-1001-voice
> On Jun 13, 2014, at 1:38 PM, "Michael Avanesian michael@avanesianlaw.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>
> The first question is whether the case can be filed in the U.S., the answer to that question is "yes" and is located in section 109. Case law says a bank account with some money in it is enough assets.
>
> Gio's question is then, what address should be put on the petition, in particular if he can use his office as the address of the Debtor, the answer is "no" -- go force the clerk to accept the Debtor's real address. The answer to this comes from -d's knowledge and experience and because if the question says "where do you live?" you purger yourself if you write you live in your attorney's office when you don't.
>
> Venue made me get an A- in civ pro so I still have trouble with it. Bert raises the question of where is the proper venue. In particular, if the account is considered located where the owner lives for income tax purposes (I have not verified this, but if I live in Canada and earn interest from my bank account whose only branch is in California, does the IRS not tax me on that income since it was earned where I live, Canada? Seems strange.)
>
> I think you file the petition where it is most convenient for the parties, i.e. probably in the district of the court where the judgment was entered. Could one file in the district where the attorney is located based on the fact that the unearned retainer is located there and is the only US asset? I think the answer is certainly yes in a Chapter 11 where there is postpetition retainer remaining. I think the answer is a stretch for a Chapter 7. Of course, none of this is an issue unless there is a venue challenge, right?
>
> Sincerely,
> Michael Avanesian
>
>> On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 7:32 AM, bert Yahoo bertkawahara@yahoo.com [cdcbaa] wrote:
>>
>> For income tax purposes, I think an FDIC bank account is considered located where the owner lives. If true, does this affect venue for bankruptcy ?
>>
>> Sent from iphone Bert Kawahara
>>
>>> On Jun 12, 2014, at 7:54 PM, "cdcbaa cdcbaamailbox@gmail.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Do not suborn prejury. Venue is proper where the principal assets of the debtor are located in the USA, 28 USC 1408, so the bank account gives venue, but the trick is to hand file the case.
>>>
>>> Ecf won't take a case with an address outside the district, so you must hand file the case so the clerks can override the system.
>>>
>>> The first clerk will balk, but you must ask for a supervisor and have your code with you. I have insisted the clerks file the cases with an address outside the district and by standing my guns, have gotten them to file the cases.
>>>
>>> d
>>>
>>> Dennis McGoldrick, 350 S. Crenshaw Bl., #A207B, Torrance, Ca 90503 310-328-1001-voice
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jun 12, 2014, at 3:59 PM, "'Mark J. Markus' bklawr@yahoo.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Great question. I've filed a bunch of these over the years and always wondered if I could just use my office address for the client. Here are my ramblings on the subject.
>>>>
>>>> Venue is established by the property located in the USA, not the residence, so it shouldn't affect that.
>>>>
>>>> The proper address to put there, of course, is the street address where the debtor resides in the foreign country and then, hopefully, a mailing address in the USA. But that wasn't your question.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know that there is any requirement that the debtor even have a "street address", except that now--due to the advent of ECF--it may be a technological requirement. I've had literally homeless clients before, living out of their cars, but to avoid hassles I usually have them put down the address of a friend (which is usually where they get their mail).
>>>>
>>>> My belief is that you should be able to use your office address for the client's street address (perhaps putting c/o), but as I mentioned, I'm not so sure that's even necessary. You could use your office address as the mailing address for sure.
>>>>
>>>> If you do that, I would attach a sheet that explains why you're using your office address. Worst case scenario is you need to amend the petition.
>>>>
>>>> Hope this helps
>>>>
>>>> *************************
>>>> Mark J. Markus
>>>> Law Office of Mark J. Markus
>>>> Mailing Address Only:
>>>> 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
>>>> Studio City, CA 91604-2652
>>>> (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
>>>> web: http://www.bklaw.com/
>>>> Certified Bankruptcy Law Specialist--The State Bar of California Board of Legal Specialization
>>>> This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>> NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
>>>> IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication.
>>>> On 6/12/2014 3:49 PM, Giovanni Orantes go@gobklaw.com [cdcbaa] wrote:
>>>>> I have a client who lives overseas but has a judgment against him here in the U.S. and wants to discharge it. He has some money in a bank account in California and still has his California driver's license. However, he does not currently have a residence in the U.S. He would travel here for the 341(a) meeting etc. Does anybody see any problems letting him use my office address for the petition.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Giovanni Orantes, Esq.*
>>>>> Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
>>>>> 3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 2920
>>>>> Los Angeles, CA 90010
>>>>> Tel: (213) 389-4362
>>>>> Fax: (877) 789-5776
>>>>> e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
>>>>> website: www.gobklaw.com
>>>>>
>>>>> *Board Certified - Business Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
>>>>> *Board Certified - Consumer Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
>>>>> Commercial Litigation
>>>>> Estate Planning
>>>>> Outside General Counsel
>>>>>
>>>>> WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
>>>>>
>>>>> SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY, RIVERSIDE, SAN BERNARDINO AND SANTA BARBARA AND THE WORLD FOR CHAPTER 11 AND 15 CASES.
>>>>>
>>>>> Note: The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us by telephone or e-mail and delete the original e-mail at (213) 389-4362 or (888) 619-8222.
>>>>>
>>>>> IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with requirements imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
>
>

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Bert:
If that is the rule, it would affect venue. Where did you find that rule?
d
Dennis McGoldrick, 350 S. Crenshaw Bl., #A207B, Torrance, Ca 90503 310-328-1001-voice
> On Jun 13, 2014, at 7:32 AM, "bert Yahoo bertkawahara@yahoo.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>
> For income tax purposes, I think an FDIC bank account is considered located where the owner lives. If true, does this affect venue for bankruptcy ?
>
> Sent from iphone Bert Kawahara
>
>> On Jun 12, 2014, at 7:54 PM, "cdcbaa cdcbaamailbox@gmail.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>>
>>
>> Do not suborn prejury. Venue is proper where the principal assets of the debtor are located in the USA, 28 USC 1408, so the bank account gives venue, but the trick is to hand file the case.
>>
>> Ecf won't take a case with an address outside the district, so you must hand file the case so the clerks can override the system.
>>
>> The first clerk will balk, but you must ask for a supervisor and have your code with you. I have insisted the clerks file the cases with an address outside the district and by standing my guns, have gotten them to file the cases.
>>
>> d
>>
>> Dennis McGoldrick, 350 S. Crenshaw Bl., #A207B, Torrance, Ca 90503 310-328-1001-voice
>>
>>
>>> On Jun 12, 2014, at 3:59 PM, "'Mark J. Markus' bklawr@yahoo.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Great question. I've filed a bunch of these over the years and always wondered if I could just use my office address for the client. Here are my ramblings on the subject.
>>>
>>> Venue is established by the property located in the USA, not the residence, so it shouldn't affect that.
>>>
>>> The proper address to put there, of course, is the street address where the debtor resides in the foreign country and then, hopefully, a mailing address in the USA. But that wasn't your question.
>>>
>>> I don't know that there is any requirement that the debtor even have a "street address", except that now--due to the advent of ECF--it may be a technological requirement. I've had literally homeless clients before, living out of their cars, but to avoid hassles I usually have them put down the address of a friend (which is usually where they get their mail).
>>>
>>> My belief is that you should be able to use your office address for the client's street address (perhaps putting c/o), but as I mentioned, I'm not so sure that's even necessary. You could use your office address as the mailing address for sure.
>>>
>>> If you do that, I would attach a sheet that explains why you're using your office address. Worst case scenario is you need to amend the petition.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps
>>>
>>> *************************
>>> Mark J. Markus
>>> Law Office of Mark J. Markus
>>> Mailing Address Only:
>>> 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
>>> Studio City, CA 91604-2652
>>> (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
>>> web: http://www.bklaw.com/
>>> Certified Bankruptcy Law Specialist--The State Bar of California Board of Legal Specialization
>>> This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
>>> ________________________________________________
>>> NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
>>> IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication.
>>> On 6/12/2014 3:49 PM, Giovanni Orantes go@gobklaw.com [cdcbaa] wrote:
>>>> I have a client who lives overseas but has a judgment against him here in the U.S. and wants to discharge it. He has some money in a bank account in California and still has his California driver's license. However, he does not currently have a residence in the U.S. He would travel here for the 341(a) meeting etc. Does anybody see any problems letting him use my office address for the petition.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Giovanni Orantes, Esq.*
>>>> Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
>>>> 3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 2920
>>>> Los Angeles, CA 90010
>>>> Tel: (213) 389-4362
>>>> Fax: (877) 789-5776
>>>> e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
>>>> website: www.gobklaw.com
>>>>
>>>> *Board Certified - Business Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
>>>> *Board Certified - Consumer Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
>>>> Commercial Litigation
>>>> Estate Planning
>>>> Outside General Counsel
>>>>
>>>> WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
>>>>
>>>> SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY, RIVERSIDE, SAN BERNARDINO AND SANTA BARBARA AND THE WORLD FOR CHAPTER 11 AND 15 CASES.
>>>>
>>>> Note: The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us by telephone or e-mail and delete the original e-mail at (213) 389-4362 or (888) 619-8222.
>>>>
>>>> IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with requirements imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
>
>

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

But where are bank accounts located nowadays? If you open an account
online, you never set foot in a brick and mortar location. The only thing
that is likely certain is that the account is in the United States.
On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 5:18 PM, John Faucher j.d.faucher@sbcglobal.net
[cdcbaa] wrote:
>
>
> I have a little trouble with the concept of a bank account being located
> for "income tax purposes" in a different locus than the branch it was
> deposited into. Does anyone have authority for this statement?
> U.S. taxation is generally based on the person, not the location of the
> assets. A U.S. citizen is taxed on all income earned anyplace in the
> world. The Canadian resident, U.S. citizen is taxed the same on his
> Canadian, Swiss, and U.S. accounts (assuming he reports the income from
> each).
> Assuming that the bank account follows the residence of the owner for tax
> purposes, which is just speculation to me so far, nothing about that rule
> says that the account follows the owner for purposes of bankruptcy venue.
> I would assume that the bank account is located where the bank is, until
> proven otherwise.
> - John D. Faucher
> 818/889-8080
>
>
>
> On Friday, June 13, 2014 1:39 PM, "Michael Avanesian
> michael@avanesianlaw.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>
>
>
> The first question is whether the case can be filed in the U.S., the
> answer to that question is "yes" and is located in section 109. Case law
> says a bank account with some money in it is enough assets.
>
> Gio's question is then, what address should be put on the petition, in
> particular if he can use his office as the address of the Debtor, the
> answer is "no" -- go force the clerk to accept the Debtor's real address.
> The answer to this comes from -d's knowledge and experience and because if
> the question says "where do you live?" you purger yourself if you write you
> live in your attorney's office when you don't.
>
> Venue made me get an A- in civ pro so I still have trouble with it. Bert
> raises the question of where is the proper venue. In particular, if the
> account is considered located where the owner lives for income tax purposes
> (I have not verified this, but if I live in Canada and earn interest from
> my bank account whose only branch is in California, does the IRS not tax me
> on that income since it was earned where I live, Canada? Seems strange.)
>
> I think you file the petition where it is most convenient for the parties,
> i.e. probably in the district of the court where the judgment was entered.
> Could one file in the district where the attorney is located based on the
> fact that the unearned retainer is located there and is the only US asset?
> I think the answer is certainly yes in a Chapter 11 where there is
> postpetition retainer remaining. I think the answer is a stretch for a
> Chapter 7. Of course, none of this is an issue unless there is a venue
> challenge, right?
>
> Sincerely,
> Michael Avanesian
>
> On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 7:32 AM, bert Yahoo bertkawahara@yahoo.com
> [cdcbaa] wrote:
>
>
> For income tax purposes, I think an FDIC bank account is considered
> located where the owner lives. If true, does this affect venue for
> bankruptcy ?
>
> Sent from iphone Bert Kawahara
>
> On Jun 12, 2014, at 7:54 PM, "cdcbaa cdcbaamailbox@gmail.com [cdcbaa]" cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
> Do not suborn prejury. Venue is proper where the principal assets of the
> debtor are located in the USA, 28 USC 1408, so the bank account gives
> venue, but the trick is to hand file the case.
>
> Ecf won't take a case with an address outside the district, so you must
> hand file the case so the clerks can override the system.
>
> The first clerk will balk, but you must ask for a supervisor and have your
> code with you. I have insisted the clerks file the cases with an address
> outside the district and by standing my guns, have gotten them to file the
> cases.
>
> d
>
> Dennis McGoldrick, 350 S. Crenshaw Bl., #A207B, Torrance, Ca 90503
> 310-328-1001-voice
> [image: cid:part1.03050307.05030101@bklaw.com]
>
> On Jun 12, 2014, at 3:59 PM, "'Mark J. Markus' bklawr@yahoo.com [cdcbaa]"
> wrote:
>
>
> Great question. I've filed a bunch of these over the years and always
> wondered if I could just use my office address for the client. Here are
> my ramblings on the subject.
>
> Venue is established by the property located in the USA, not the
> residence, so it shouldn't affect that.
>
> The proper address to put there, of course, is the street address where
> the debtor resides in the foreign country and then, hopefully, a mailing
> address in the USA. But that wasn't your question.
>
> I don't know that there is any requirement that the debtor even have a
> "street address", except that now--due to the advent of ECF--it may be a
> technological requirement. I've had literally homeless clients before,
> living out of their cars, but to avoid hassles I usually have them put down
> the address of a friend (which is usually where they get their mail).
>
> My belief is that you should be able to use your office address for the
> client's street address (perhaps putting c/o), but as I mentioned, I'm not
> so sure that's even necessary. You could use your office address as the
> mailing address for sure.
>
> If you do that, I would attach a sheet that explains why you're using your
> office address. Worst case scenario is you need to amend the petition.
>
> Hope this helps
>
> *************************
> Mark J. Markus
> Law Office of Mark J. Markus
> *Mailing Address Only:*
> 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
> Studio City, CA 91604-2652
> (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
> web: http://www.bklaw.com/
> Certified Bankruptcy Law Specialist--The State Bar of California Board of
> Legal Specialization
> This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
> ________________________________________________
> NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office
> of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for
> the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any
> disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is
> prohibited.
> IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by
> the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this
> communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used,
> and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the
> Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to
> another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication.
> On 6/12/2014 3:49 PM, Giovanni Orantes go@gobklaw.com [cdcbaa] wrote:
>
> I have a client who lives overseas but has a judgment against him here in
> the U.S. and wants to discharge it. He has some money in a bank account in
> California and still has his California driver's license. However, he does
> not currently have a residence in the U.S. He would travel here for the
> 341(a) meeting etc. Does anybody see any problems letting him use my
> office address for the petition.
>
> --
> Giovanni Orantes, Esq.*
> Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
> 3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 2920
> Los Angeles, CA 90010
> Tel: (213) 389-4362
> Fax: (877) 789-5776
> e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
> website: www.gobklaw.com
>
> *Board Certified - Business Bankruptcy Law - American Board of
> Certification
> *Board Certified - Consumer Bankruptcy Law - American Board of
> Certification
> Commercial Litigation
> Estate Planning
> Outside General Counsel
>
> WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
>
> SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY, RIVERSIDE, SAN BERNARDINO
> AND SANTA BARBARA AND THE WORLD FOR CHAPTER 11 AND 15 CASES.
>
> Note: The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential
> information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If
> the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent
> responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby
> notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this communication
> is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error,
> please immediately notify us by telephone or e-mail and delete the original
> e-mail at (213) 389-4362 or (888) 619-8222.
>
> IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with requirements imposed
> by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice
> contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended
> to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties
> under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or
> recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Giovanni Orantes, Esq.*
Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 2920
Los Angeles, CA 90010
Tel: (213) 389-4362
Fax: (877) 789-5776
e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
website: www.gobklaw.com
*Board Certified - Business Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
*Board Certified - Consumer Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
Commercial Litigation
Estate Planning
Outside General Counsel
WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY, RIVERSIDE, SAN BERNARDINO
AND SANTA BARBARA AND THE WORLD FOR CHAPTER 11 AND 15 CASES.
Note: The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential
information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If
the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent
responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this communication
is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error,
please immediately notify us by telephone or e-mail and delete the original
e-mail at (213) 389-4362 or (888) 619-8222.
IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with requirements imposed
by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice
contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended
to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties
under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or
recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
But where are bank accounts located nowadays? If you open an account online, you never set foot in a brick and mortar location. The only thing that is likely certain is that the account is in the United States.
On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 5:18 PM, John Faucher j.d.faucher@sbcglobal.net [cdcbaa] <cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

I have a little trouble with the concept of a bank account being located for "income tax purposes" in a different locus than the branch it was deposited into. Does anyone have authority for this statement?
U.S. taxation is generally based on the person, not the location of the assets. A U.S. citizen is taxed on all income earned anyplace in the world. The Canadian resident, U.S. citizen is taxed the same on his Canadian, Swiss, and U.S. accounts (assuming he reports the income from each). Assuming that the bank account follows the residence of the owner for tax purposes, which is just speculation to me so far, nothing about that rule says that the account follows the owner for purposes of bankruptcy venue. proven otherwise.
- John D. Faucher
818/889-8080
On Friday, June 13, 2014 1:39 PM, "Michael Avanesian michael@avanesianlaw.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
The first question is whether the case can be filed in the U.S., the answer to that question is "yes" and is located in section 109. Case law says a bank account with some money in it is enough assets.
Gio's question is then, what address should be put on the petition, in particular if he can use his office as the address of the Debtor, the answer is "no" -- go force the clerk to accept the Debtor's real address. The answer to this comes from -d's knowledge and experience and because if the question says "where do you live?" youpurger yourself if you write you live in your attorney's office when you don't.
Venue made me get an A- in civ pro so I still have trouble with it. Bert raises the question of where is the proper venue. In particular, if the account is considered located where the owner lives for income tax purposes (I have not verified this, but if I live in Canada and earn interest from my bank account whose only branch is in California, does the IRS not tax me on that income since it was earned where I live, Canada? Seems strange.)
I think you file the petition where it is most convenient for the parties, i.e. probably in the district of the court where the judgment was entered. Could one file in the district where the attorney is located based on the fact that the unearned retainer is located there and is the only US asset? I think the answer is certainly yes in a Chapter 11 where there is postpetition retainer remaining. I think the answer is a stretch for a Chapter 7. Of course, none of this is an issue unless there is a venue challenge, right?
Sincerely,
Michael Avanesian
On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 7:32 AM, bert Yahoo bertkawahara@yahoo.com [cdcbaa] wrote:
>
>For income tax purposes, I think an FDIC bank account is considered located where the owner lives. If true, does this affect venue for bankruptcy ?
>
>Sent from iphone Bert Kawahara
>
>On Jun 12, 2014, at 7:54 PM, "cdcbaa cdcbaamailbox@gmail.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>
>
>
>>Do not suborn prejury. Venue is proper where the principal assets of the debtor are located in the USA, 28 USC 1408, so the bank account gives venue, but the trick is to hand file the case.
>>
>>
>>Ecf won't take a case with an address outside the district, so you must hand file the case so the clerks can override the system.
>>
>>
>>The first clerk will balk, but you must ask for a supervisor and have your code with you. I have insisted the clerks file the cases with an address outside the district and by standing my guns, have gotten them to file the cases.
>>
>>
>>d
>>
>>Dennis McGoldrick, 350 S. Crenshaw Bl., #A207B, Torrance, Ca 90503 310-328-1001-voice
>>
>>On Jun 12, 2014, at 3:59 PM, "'Mark J. Markus' bklawr@yahoo.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Great question. I've filed a bunch of these over the years and always wondered if I could just use my office address for the client.>>>
>>>Venue is established by the property located in the USA, not the
residence, so it shouldn't affect that.
>>>
>>>The proper address to put there, of course, is the street
address where the debtor resides in the foreign country and
then, hopefully, a mailing address in the USA. But that wasn't
your question.
>>>
>>>I don't know that there is any requirement that the debtor even
have a "street address", except that now--due to the advent of
ECF--it may be a technological requirement. I've had literally
homeless clients before, living out of their cars, but to avoid
hassles I usually have them put down the address of a friend
(which is usually where they get their mail).
>>>
>>>My belief is that you should be able to use your office address
for the client's street address (perhaps putting c/o), but as I
mentioned, I'm not so sure that's even necessary. You could use
your office address as the mailing address for sure.
>>>
>>>If you do that, I would attach a sheet that explains why you're
using your office address. Worst case scenario is you need to
amend the petition.
>>>
>>>Hope this helps
>>>
>>>
>>>*************************
>>>Mark J. Markus
>>>Law Office of Mark J. Markus
>>>Mailing Address Only:
>>>11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
>>>Studio City, CA 91604-2652
>>>(818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
>>>web: http://www.bklaw.com/
>>>Certified Bankruptcy Law Specialist--The State Bar of
California Board of Legal Specialization
>>>This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
>>>________________________________________________
>>>NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the
law office of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The
information is intended for the use of the addressee only. If
you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy,
distribution or use of the contents of this message is
prohibited.
>>>IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with
requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S.
tax advice contained in this communication (or in any
attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot
be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the
Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or
recommending to another party any transaction or matter
addressed in this communication.
On 6/12/2014 3:49 PM, Giovanni Orantes go@gobklaw.com [cdcbaa] wrote:
>>>
>>>I have a client who lives overseas but has a judgment against him here in the U.S. and wants to discharge it. He has some money in a bank account in California and still has his California driver's license. However, he does not currently have a residence in the U.S. He would travel here for the 341(a) meeting etc. Does anybody see any problems letting him use my office address for the petition.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Giovanni Orantes, Esq.*
>>>>Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
>>>>3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 2920
>>>>Los Angeles, CA 90010
>>>>Tel: (213) 389-4362
>>>>Fax: (877) 789-5776
>>>>e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
>>>>website: www.gobklaw.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>*Board Certified - Business Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
>>>>
>>>>*Board Certified - Consumer Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
>>>>
>>>>Commercial Litigation
>>>>Estate Planning
>>>>Outside General Counsel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
>>>>
>>>>SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY,
RIVERSIDE, SAN BERNARDINO AND SANTA BARBARA AND THE WORLD
FOR CHAPTER 11 AND 15 CASES.
>>>>
>>>>Note: The information contained in this e-mail message is
confidential information intended only for the use of the
individual or entity named. If the reader of this message
is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for
delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of
this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this communication in error, please immediately
notify us by telephone or e-mail and delete the original
e-mail at (213) 389-4362 or (888) 619-8222.
>>>>
>>>>IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with
requirements imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we
inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this
communication (including any attachments) is not intended
to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i)
avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii)
promoting, marketing, or recommending to another party any
transaction or matter addressed herein.
>>>>
>>>

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

The first question is whether the case can be filed in the U.S., the answer
to that question is "yes" and is located in section 109. Case law says a
bank account with some money in it is enough assets.
Gio's question is then, what address should be put on the petition, in
particular if he can use his office as the address of the Debtor, the
answer is "no" -- go force the clerk to accept the Debtor's real address.
The answer to this comes from -d's knowledge and experience and because if
the question says "where do you live?" you purger yourself if you write you
live in your attorney's office when you don't.
Venue made me get an A- in civ pro so I still have trouble with it. Bert
raises the question of where is the proper venue. In particular, if the
account is considered located where the owner lives for income tax purposes
(I have not verified this, but if I live in Canada and earn interest from
my bank account whose only branch is in California, does the IRS not tax me
on that income since it was earned where I live, Canada? Seems strange.)
I think you file the petition where it is most convenient for the parties,
i.e. probably in the district of the court where the judgment was entered.
Could one file in the district where the attorney is located based on the
fact that the unearned retainer is located there and is the only US asset?
I think the answer is certainly yes in a Chapter 11 where there is
postpetition retainer remaining. I think the answer is a stretch for a
Chapter 7. Of course, none of this is an issue unless there is a venue
challenge, right?
Sincerely,
Michael Avanesian
On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 7:32 AM, bert Yahoo bertkawahara@yahoo.com [cdcbaa]
wrote:
>
>
> For income tax purposes, I think an FDIC bank account is considered
> located where the owner lives. If true, does this affect venue for
> bankruptcy ?
>
> Sent from iphone Bert Kawahara
>
> On Jun 12, 2014, at 7:54 PM, "cdcbaa cdcbaamailbox@gmail.com [cdcbaa]" cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Do not suborn prejury. Venue is proper where the principal assets of the
> debtor are located in the USA, 28 USC 1408, so the bank account gives
> venue, but the trick is to hand file the case.
>
> Ecf won't take a case with an address outside the district, so you must
> hand file the case so the clerks can override the system.
>
> The first clerk will balk, but you must ask for a supervisor and have your
> code with you. I have insisted the clerks file the cases with an address
> outside the district and by standing my guns, have gotten them to file the
> cases.
>
> d
>
> Dennis McGoldrick, 350 S. Crenshaw Bl., #A207B, Torrance, Ca 90503
> 310-328-1001-voice
> [image: cid:part1.03050307.05030101@bklaw.com]
>
> On Jun 12, 2014, at 3:59 PM, "'Mark J. Markus' bklawr@yahoo.com [cdcbaa]"
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Great question. I've filed a bunch of these over the years and always
> wondered if I could just use my office address for the client. Here are
> my ramblings on the subject.
>
> Venue is established by the property located in the USA, not the
> residence, so it shouldn't affect that.
>
> The proper address to put there, of course, is the street address where
> the debtor resides in the foreign country and then, hopefully, a mailing
> address in the USA. But that wasn't your question.
>
> I don't know that there is any requirement that the debtor even have a
> "street address", except that now--due to the advent of ECF--it may be a
> technological requirement. I've had literally homeless clients before,
> living out of their cars, but to avoid hassles I usually have them put down
> the address of a friend (which is usually where they get their mail).
>
> My belief is that you should be able to use your office address for the
> client's street address (perhaps putting c/o), but as I mentioned, I'm not
> so sure that's even necessary. You could use your office address as the
> mailing address for sure.
>
> If you do that, I would attach a sheet that explains why you're using your
> office address. Worst case scenario is you need to amend the petition.
>
> Hope this helps
>
> *************************
> Mark J. Markus
> Law Office of Mark J. Markus
> *Mailing Address Only:*
> 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
> Studio City, CA 91604-2652
> (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
> web: http://www.bklaw.com/
> Certified Bankruptcy Law Specialist--The State Bar of California Board of
> Legal Specialization
> This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
> ________________________________________________
> NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office
> of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for
> the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any
> disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is
> prohibited.
> IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by
> the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this
> communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used,
> and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the
> Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to
> another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication.
> On 6/12/2014 3:49 PM, Giovanni Orantes go@gobklaw.com [cdcbaa] wrote:
>
> I have a client who lives overseas but has a judgment against him here in
> the U.S. and wants to discharge it. He has some money in a bank account in
> California and still has his California driver's license. However, he does
> not currently have a residence in the U.S. He would travel here for the
> 341(a) meeting etc. Does anybody see any problems letting him use my
> office address for the petition.
>
> --
> Giovanni Orantes, Esq.*
> Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
> 3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 2920
> Los Angeles, CA 90010
> Tel: (213) 389-4362
> Fax: (877) 789-5776
> e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
> website: www.gobklaw.com
>
> *Board Certified - Business Bankruptcy Law - American Board of
> Certification
> *Board Certified - Consumer Bankruptcy Law - American Board of
> Certification
> Commercial Litigation
> Estate Planning
> Outside General Counsel
>
> WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
>
> SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY, RIVERSIDE, SAN BERNARDINO
> AND SANTA BARBARA AND THE WORLD FOR CHAPTER 11 AND 15 CASES.
>
> Note: The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential
> information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If
> the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent
> responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby
> notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this communication
> is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error,
> please immediately notify us by telephone or e-mail and delete the original
> e-mail at (213) 389-4362 or (888) 619-8222.
>
> IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with requirements imposed
> by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice
> contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended
> to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties
> under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or
> recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
>
>
>
>
The first question is whether the case can be filed in the U.S., the answer to that question is "yes" and is located in section 109. Case law says a bank account with some money in it is enough assets.
Gio's question is then, what address should be put on the petition, in particular if he can use his office as the address of the Debtor, the answer is "no" -- go force the clerk to accept the Debt
The post was migrated from Yahoo.

For income tax purposes, I think an FDIC bank account is considered located where the owner lives. If true, does this affect venue for bankruptcy ?
Sent from iphone Bert Kawahara
> On Jun 12, 2014, at 7:54 PM, "cdcbaa cdcbaamailbox@gmail.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>
> Do not suborn prejury. Venue is proper where the principal assets of the debtor are located in the USA, 28 USC 1408, so the bank account gives venue, but the trick is to hand file the case.
>
> Ecf won't take a case with an address outside the district, so you must hand file the case so the clerks can override the system.
>
> The first clerk will balk, but you must ask for a supervisor and have your code with you. I have insisted the clerks file the cases with an address outside the district and by standing my guns, have gotten them to file the cases.
>
> d
>
> Dennis McGoldrick, 350 S. Crenshaw Bl., #A207B, Torrance, Ca 90503 310-328-1001-voice
>
>
>> On Jun 12, 2014, at 3:59 PM, "'Mark J. Markus' bklawr@yahoo.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
>>
>>
>> Great question. I've filed a bunch of these over the years and always wondered if I could just use my office address for the client. Here are my ramblings on the subject.
>>
>> Venue is established by the property located in the USA, not the residence, so it shouldn't affect that.
>>
>> The proper address to put there, of course, is the street address where the debtor resides in the foreign country and then, hopefully, a mailing address in the USA. But that wasn't your question.
>>
>> I don't know that there is any requirement that the debtor even have a "street address", except that now--due to the advent of ECF--it may be a technological requirement. I've had literally homeless clients before, living out of their cars, but to avoid hassles I usually have them put down the address of a friend (which is usually where they get their mail).
>>
>> My belief is that you should be able to use your office address for the client's street address (perhaps putting c/o), but as I mentioned, I'm not so sure that's even necessary. You could use your office address as the mailing address for sure.
>>
>> If you do that, I would attach a sheet that explains why you're using your office address. Worst case scenario is you need to amend the petition.
>>
>> Hope this helps
>>
>> *************************
>> Mark J. Markus
>> Law Office of Mark J. Markus
>> Mailing Address Only:
>> 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
>> Studio City, CA 91604-2652
>> (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
>> web: http://www.bklaw.com/
>> Certified Bankruptcy Law Specialist--The State Bar of California Board of Legal Specialization
>> This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
>> ________________________________________________
>> NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
>> IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication.
>> On 6/12/2014 3:49 PM, Giovanni Orantes go@gobklaw.com [cdcbaa] wrote:
>>> I have a client who lives overseas but has a judgment against him here in the U.S. and wants to discharge it. He has some money in a bank account in California and still has his California driver's license. However, he does not currently have a residence in the U.S. He would travel here for the 341(a) meeting etc. Does anybody see any problems letting him use my office address for the petition.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Giovanni Orantes, Esq.*
>>> Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
>>> 3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 2920
>>> Los Angeles, CA 90010
>>> Tel: (213) 389-4362
>>> Fax: (877) 789-5776
>>> e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
>>> website: www.gobklaw.com
>>>
>>> *Board Certified - Business Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
>>> *Board Certified - Consumer Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
>>> Commercial Litigation
>>> Estate Planning
>>> Outside General Counsel
>>>
>>> WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
>>>
>>> SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY, RIVERSIDE, SAN BERNARDINO AND SANTA BARBARA AND THE WORLD FOR CHAPTER 11 AND 15 CASES.
>>>
>>> Note: The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us by telephone or e-mail and delete the original e-mail >>>
>>> IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with requirements imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
>
>

The post was migrated from Yahoo.