Central District Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney's Association

Here is Stip filed with the court that Cohen uses.
Law Office of Catherine Christiansen
Certified Specialist, Bankruptcy Law, The State Bar of California Board of Legal Specialization.
On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 3:13 PM, "sam@southbaybk.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
I think it may be better to involve the Judges in some cases. It is one thing to ask for refunds from cases filed last year, but to go back 2-4 years is patently unfair.The problem is,we probably don't wantto wait until a motion to dismiss is filed - or untilahandle it on a case by case basis.I'll probably' send out a letter blaming the trustee for the surprise and advising the clients to pay if they can (even in a few installments) or to contact me if they can't. 't pay, I imagine filing a motion to retain refund. Ground one will be that turnover it is not required by the plan. Ground two, if available , will be that refund isnot disposable income. , Over the years I have prevailed on a couple of motions to retaina refund on a showing that it is not disposable income (e.g. if it was spent to fund some emergency or if it replaced a drop in income). However,the trustee's tend to opposeetention ifthe debtor momod's topay the refund backover the remaining plan period. So then you end up with a motion to retain and a
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Another idea is to project the tax refund into Schedule I (divided by 12)
and amend Schedule J with reasonable expenses so that the plan payment
doesn't go up. Not sure if this would work, but if you can show it is
necessary to fund the plan as is, then maybe you can prevent turnover?
Holly Roark
Certified Bankruptcy Specialist*
*and Sports Lawyer*
holly@roarklawoffices.com **primary email address**
www.roarklawoffices.com
Central District of California - Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney
1875 Century Park East, Suite 600 Los Angeles, CA 90067
T (310) 553-2600; F (310) 553-2601
*By State Bar of California Board of Legal Specialization
**Counsel for Chapter 13 Trustee Kathleen A. McCallister (Idaho) T (208)
922-5100
On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 1:20 PM, 'Hale Andrew Antico' bk.lawyer@gmail.com
[cdcbaa] wrote:
>
>
> I -- and I'm guessing you, too, -- have multiple clients in confirmed
> Chapter 13 cases that just got a letter from Nancy Curry's office
> requesting tax refunds from past years. I -- like you -- tell clients
> verbally and in writing that tax refunds go into the plan. Still, here we
> are, with stressed out clients who don't have the thousands that were
> received from years past and are now long spent. Interestingly, the Orders
> Confirming don't mention tax refunds going to the trustee. How are you all
> going to handle this, and is it worth disputing this somehow because it's
> not in the Order?
>
> Hale
>
>
>
Another idea is to project the tax refund into Schedule I (divided by 12) and amend Schedule J with reasonable expenses so that the plan payment doesn't go up. Not sure if this would work, but if you can show it is necessary to fund the plan as is, then maybe you can prevent turnover?Holly RoarkCertified Bankruptcy Specialist*and Sports Lawyer
holly@roarklawoffices.com**primary email address**
www.roarklawoffices.com
Central District of California - Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney
1875 Century Park East, Suite 600 Los Angeles, CA 90067
T (310) 553-2600; F (310) 553-2601
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There is a case in the Valley where Rojas waited until the end of the case to request refunds. The court denied her request because she waited until the end of the case to make the request. Anyone remember which case this was - about 4 years ago.
Law Office of Catherine Christiansen
Certified Specialist, Bankruptcy Law, The State Bar of California Board of Legal Specialization.
On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 12:04 PM, "'Mark J. Markus' bklawr@yahoo.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
I just received a great e-mail from one of my clients who just received Nancy's letter.
Fortunately in his case, according to Nancy's office, he has completed his plan payments early (based on percentage) and she refunded some "overpayments" he made (despite the fact he had about 9 months of payments left).
Anyway, my client's e-mail highlights some even further uncertainty about what Nancy is requesting. See below:
"Mark, How exactly is this amount calculated? There are a few ways I read this:
Any individual payments I received that exceeded $1500 are owed.
Add up all the refunds I received during the term and subtract $1500 then that money is owed.
Alternately, if I am adding up all five years together, wouldn't you also subtract tax payments owed since those additional taxes were not included in the yearly plans?
Alternately I could add up all the tax payments made in five years and subtract all the refunds."
The bottom line is I agree with Michael Avanesian's comment that these refunds are property of the estate and perhaps should be required as contributions to the plan, but ONLY if provided for in the Plan or in the Order confirming the Plan.
To require debtors to come up with several years worth of refunds now is frankly unfair. Moreover, if the debtors have properly submitted the annual tax returns to the Trustee, and the Trustee failed to take any action on them (i.e. if they showed refunds to the debtor), then I would argue that she is estopped from seeking them now.
*************************
Mark J. Markus
Law Office of Mark J. Markus
Mailing Address Only:
11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
Studio City, CA 91604-2652
(818)509-1173 (818)332-1180 (fax)
web: http://www.bklaw.com/
Certified Bankruptcy Law Specialist--The State Bar of California Board of Legal Specialization
This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
________________________________________________
NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication. On 3/25/2015 9:13 AM, Daniela Romero dromerolaw@gmail.com [cdcbaa] wrote:
Here is the email response I just received from Trustee Curry's office regarding a case where the tax refund language was not included in the order. "Yes, the Trustee would request tax refunds as it is considered disposable income that should be committed to the plan."
Sincerely,
Daniela P. Romero Law Offices of Daniela Romero, APLC
1015 North Lake Ave., Ste. 212
Pasadena, CA 91104
Tel: (626) 817-2611
Fax: (626) 296-6991
email: dromerolaw@gmail.com
web: www.pasadenabankruptcylaw.com
Los Angeles Office: 2500 Wilshire Blvd., Ste. 1150 Los Angeles, CA 90057 Tel: (213) 480-1941 Fax: (213) 389-3797 email: dromerolawla@gmail.com web: www.dromerolaw.com ______________________________________________________________
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On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 5:35 PM, Kirk Brennan kirkinhermosa@gmail.com [cdcbaa] wrote:
Mighr be worth fighting if its not in the order. On Mar 24, 2015 4:58 PM, "cliff@bordeauxlaw.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
[Attachment(s) from cliff@bordeauxlaw.com [cdcbaa] included below] Here is the letter. At some point in the past couple of years, I believe Nancy Curry started adding the tax refund language to all confirmation orders. However, I just looked at a case confirmed in February, 2013, which did not contain the language, yet the debtor received one of these letters. The Diaz case, which is cited in the letter, was decided in 2011. However, in Diaz the confirmation order explicitly required turnover of tax refunds.
Since the letter states that "failure to comply will result in a Chapter 13 Trustee's motion to dismiss your case," I think clarification is needed.order contained the language regarding tax refunds?
I understand that in the past, cases in which Nancy Curry was the trustee could be completed before expiration of the plan term if the debtor's payments (with or without tax refund money) were sufficient to pay the Class 5 percentage in the confirmed plan. But this letter makes me wonder if she might intend to start filing motions to increase the percentage to Class 5 in these situations.

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Work with your client to see if they are able to pay the trustee the refund over the time before their case is completed. Call the Trustee and see if the Trustee will accept this. You may be able to avoid a MOMOD and/or other issues that may come up. Have the client update their I&E on the Post Petition forms. Check to make sure the client has not incurred 'emergency expenses' or 'expenses necessary to complete the plan' or other types of expenses under Sec. 1305.
There is an argument that the refund is not disposable income if the refund is caused by something than over withholding from regular earnings.ith the Trustee to see what you can work out without the need to involve the court.
Law Office of Catherine Christiansen
Certified Specialist, Bankruptcy Law, The State Bar of California Board of Legal Specialization.
On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 9:20 AM, "Daniela Romero dromerolaw@gmail.com [cdcbaa]" wrote:
Here is the email response I just received from Trustee Curry's office regarding a case where the tax refund language was not included in the order.
"Yes, the Trustee would request tax refunds as it is considered disposable income that should be committed to the plan."
Sincerely,
Daniela P. RomeroLaw Offices of Daniela Romero, APLC
1015 North Lake Ave., Ste. 212
Pasadena, CA 91104
Tel: (626) 817-2611
Fax: (626) 296-6991
email: dromerolaw@gmail.com
web: www.pasadenabankruptcylaw.com
Los Angeles Office: 2500 Wilshire Blvd., Ste. 1150 Los Angeles, CA 90057Tel: (213) 480-1941Fax: (213) 389-3797email: dromerolawla@gmail.comweb:
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Here is the email response I just received from Trustee Curry's office
regarding a case where the tax refund language was not included in the
order.
"Yes, the Trustee would request tax refunds as it is considered disposable
income that should be committed to the plan."
Sincerely,
*Daniela P. Romero*
*Law Offices of Daniela Romero, APLC*
*1015 North Lake Ave., Ste. 212*
*Pasadena, CA 91104*
*Tel: (626) 817-2611*
*Fax: (626) 296-6991*
*email: dromerolaw@gmail.com *
*web: www.pasadenabankruptcylaw.com *
*Los Angeles Office: 2500 Wilshire Blvd., Ste. 1150 Los Angeles, CA 90057*
*Tel: (213) 480-1941*
*Fax: (213) 389-3797*
*email: dromerolawla@gmail.com *
*web: www.dromerolaw.com *

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A good number of my clients, before coming to me, over-withheld so that
they would receive a refund, which they would use to pay property taxes,
clothes, car down-payments, etc. It's a form of "saving". They would
deprive themselves of a particular amount each week so that they would have
the lump sum amount at tax refund time. I think you can argue that having
to deprive yourself of an amount means it was not disposable all along; you
just didn't budget properly. As to the specific case I'm thinking about,
I'd have to find it and have a huge deadline to meet right now. I'll post
it when I happen to find it.
Giovanni Orantes, Esq.*
Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 2920
Los Angeles, CA 90010
Tel: (213) 389-4362
Fax: (877) 789-5776
e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
website: www.gobklaw.com
**Certified Bankruptcy Specialist, State Bar of California, Board of Legal
Specialization*
*Board Certified - Business Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
*Board Certified - Consumer Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
Commercial Litigation
Estate Planning
Outside General Counsel
WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY, RIVERSIDE, SAN BERNARDINO
AND SANTA BARBARA AND THE WORLD FOR CHAPTER 11 AND 15 CASES.
A good number of my clients, before coming to me, over-withheld so that they would receive a refund, which they would use to pay property taxes, clothes, car down-payments, etc. It's a form of "saving". They would deprive themselves of a particular amount each week so that they would have the lump sum amount at tax refund time.s it was not disposable all along; you just didn't budget properly. and have a huge deadline to meet right now. I'll post it when I happen to find it.--Giovanni Orantes, Esq.*Orantes Law Firm, P.C.3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 2920Los Angeles, CA 90010Tel: (213) 389-4362Fax: (877) 789-5776e-mail: go@gobklaw.comwebsite: www.gobklaw.
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I don't know if my message went through earlier so forgive me for reposting
if it did. I would decline to turn over the refunds if its not in the
confirmation order. Although I suppose that since all postpetition income
is property of the estate that maybe turnover can be demanded despite
"refunds" not being specifically referenced in the Order.
On Tuesday, March 24, 2015, 'Hale Andrew Antico' bk.lawyer@gmail.com
[cdcbaa] wrote:
>
>
> I -- and I'm guessing you, too, -- have multiple clients in confirmed
> Chapter 13 cases that just got a letter from Nancy Curry's office
> requesting tax refunds from past years. I -- like you -- tell clients
> verbally and in writing that tax refunds go into the plan. Still, here we
> are, with stressed out clients who don't have the thousands that were
> received from years past and are now long spent. Interestingly, the Orders
> Confirming don't mention tax refunds going to the trustee. How are you all
> going to handle this, and is it worth disputing this somehow because it's
> not in the Order?
>
> Hale
>
>
>
Holly Roark
Certified Bankruptcy Specialist*
*and Sports Lawyer*
holly@roarklawoffices.com **primary email address**
www.roarklawoffices.com
Central District of California - Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney
1875 Century Park East, Suite 600 Los Angeles, CA 90067
T (310) 553-2600; F (310) 553-2601
*By State Bar of California Board of Legal Specialization
**Counsel for Chapter 13 Trustee Kathleen A. McCallister (Idaho) T (208)
922-5100
I don't know if my message went through earlier so forgive me for reposting if it did. I would decline to turn over the refunds if its not in the confirmation order. Although I suppose that sinceall postpetition income is property of the estate that maybe turnover can be demanded despite "refunds"not being specifically referenced in the Order.f"mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com">cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
I -- and I'm
guessing you, too, -- have multiple clients in confirmed Chapter 13 cases that
just got a letter from Nancy Curry's office requesting tax refunds from past
years. I -- like you -- tell clients verbally and in writing that tax refunds go
into the plan. Still, here we are, with stressed out clients who don't have the
thousands that were received from years past andare now long
spent.Interestingly, the Orders Confirming don't mention tax refunds going
to the trustee. How are you all going to handle this, and is it
worthdisputing this somehowbecause it's not in the
Order?
Hale
-- Holly RoarkCertified Bankruptcy Specialist*and Sports Lawyer
holly@roarklawoffices.com**primary email address**
www.roarklawoffices.com
Central District of California - Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney
1875 Century Park East, Suite 600 Los Angeles, CA 90067
T (310) 553-2600; F (310) 553-2601
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How is a tax refund not disposable income?
If your client shows $20,000 in disposable income, you guys think you can
withhold $19,999 extra from the monthly paycheck and pay creditors $1
because that's your new disposable income?
Sincerely,
*Michael Avanesian, Esq. *AVANESIAN LAW FIRM
101 N. Brand Blvd., PH 1920
Glendale, California 91203
Tel: 818.276.2477 Fax: 818.208.4550
*Confidentiality**: *This electronic transmission and its contents are
legally privileged and confidential information and intended solely for the
use of the addressee. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution,
copying or other use of this message and its contents is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please reply
to us immediately and delete this message from your directory.
*IRS Circular 230 Disclosure:* To ensure compliance with requirements
imposed by the IRS, please be advised that any U.S. federal tax advice
contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended
or written to be used or relied upon, and cannot be used or relied upon,
for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code,
or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any
transaction or matter addressed herein.
On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 5:18 PM, sam@southbaybk.com [cdcbaa] wrote:
>
>
> I only started filing in this jurisdiction 3 years ago and Ms. Curry never
> put in the refund language in any of my cases, that I am aware of, until
> cases which were confirmed about 6 months ago - and even then not in all of
> those cases.
>
>
How is a tax refund not disposable income?If your client shows $20,000 in disposable income, you guys think you can withhold $19,999 extra from the monthly paycheck and pay creditors $1 because that's your new disposable income?Sincerely,Michael Avanesian, Esq.erif">AVANESIAN
LAW FIRM101
N. Brand Blvd., PH 1920Glendale,
California 91203Tel:
818.276.2477 Fax: 818.208.4550Confidentiality:This electronic transmission and its contents are legally privileged and confidential information and intended solely for the use of the addressee. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this message and its contents is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please reply to us immediately and delete this message from your directory.IRS Circular 230 Disclosure:To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, please be advised that any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used or relied upon, and cannot be used or relied upon, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code, or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 5:18 PM, sam@southbaybk.com [cdcbaa] <cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
I only started filingin this jurisdiction3 years ago and Ms. Curry never put in the refund language in any of my cases, that I am aware of, until cases which were confirmed about 6 months ago - and even then not in all of those cases.

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I've respectfully declined many times, especially in cases where the order
does not require it. Of course, I'd welcome the opportunity to litigate
this issue with funding from a third party (ideally) as I've noticed some
cases in which the Court ruled that the refund was not "disposable" income,
but haven't been taken up on it yet. Also, I don't have to deal with this
issue much in cases I start because I started advising my clients a long
time ago to stop lending money to the IRS without charging interest and at
the least file accurate W-4s and EDD-4s after they come and see me. . . .
Giovanni Orantes, Esq.*
Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 2920
Los Angeles, CA 90010
Tel: (213) 389-4362
Fax: (877) 789-5776
e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
website: www.gobklaw.com
**Certified Bankruptcy Specialist, State Bar of California, Board of Legal
Specialization*
*Board Certified - Business Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
*Board Certified - Consumer Bankruptcy Law - American Board of Certification
Commercial Litigation
Estate Planning
Outside General Counsel
WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY, RIVERSIDE, SAN BERNARDINO
AND SANTA BARBARA AND THE WORLD FOR CHAPTER 11 AND 15 CASES.
I've respectfully declined many times, especially in cases where the order does not require it. Of course, I'd welcome the opportunity to litigate this issue with funding from a third party (ideally) as I've noticed some cases in which the Court ruled that the refund was not "disposable" income, but haven't been taken up on it yet. Also, I don't have to deal with this issue much in cases I start because I started advising my clientsa long time agoto stop lending money to the IRS without charging interest and at the least file accurate W-4s and EDD-4s after they come and see me. . . .-- Giovanni Orantes, Esq.*Orantes Law Firm, P.C.3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 2920Los Angeles, CA 90010Tel: (213) 389-4362Fax: (877) 789-5776e-mail: go@gobklaw.comwebsite: www.gobklaw.com
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This thread is timely for me. I just had a client who is 5 months away
from completing the plan payments which will pay more than the existing
claims percentage. She was upset because Nancy's office did the same
form letter to her. She got a request for her refund over $1,500 and
she got a $6,000 refund. She doesn't have the $4,500.
I told her that we'd have to do a MOMOD to at least not have to put in
the extra refund. Now that I've learned it's not in the order (although
I'll look) I wonder if just an email to Nancy or her staff may be
enough.
Steven B. Lever

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