Central District Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney's Association

I tried to file a 522(f) on personal property once. It was denied by Judge
Ahart, who wrote the Rutter Guide on collecting judgments.
However, our comrade Nicholas Gebelt once posted a letter request to remove
the judgment lien, and I've attached that letter to this email.
Gerald McNally
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I had a case last year where an abstract of judgment was recorded prepetition which did not attach to anything. Post discharge 2 years later, the debtor acquired a property and then was selling it two years later. The title company took the position that the abstract attached post-petition because it was not avoided. I tried for six weeks to convince them they were wrong so they closed escrow and held the money. I had to file a motion for an order stating that the lien did not attach. A month into the process the creditor agreed to provide me with a release so I withdrew the motion. But, this is happening all the time. There a published case on this issue out of the Eastern District.

Stella
-----OrigA@YAHOOGROUPS.COM>Sent: May 25, 2016 9:39 PM To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Personal Lien Discharged Chapter 7
Tuan:
Like Gary said the ORAP lien is only good for one year. As the bankruptcy case was filed several years ago, the only lien theoretically possible against personal property would be one recorded with the Secretary of State. If that property still exists you could reopen the case and file a 522(f) motion.
Real world question: Why would a potential home loan lender care about a personal property lien that has absolutely no impact on any real property against which the deed of trust would be recorded to secure the loan to your clients when there is no in personam liability anymore?
Answer: They wouldn't if they understood the impact of the discharge and the nature of the lien.
Obviously you need to confirm what type of lien was recorded. My guess is an abstract was recorded with the county recorder, which cannot attach to postpetition acquired property. You cannot file a 522(f) motion to avoid a lien against property that was not part of bk estate. You could theoretically file a motion for comfort order saying that no lien exists which would apply to postpetition acquired real property, but that strikes me as a waste of time and money.
Again I think you're dealing with a woefully undereducated potential lender.
Mark JesseeSent from my iPhone
On May 25, 2016, at 4:05 PM, Tuan Le tuanl@stevelopezlaw.com [cdcbaa] <cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Gary,
Now that I think about it, youre right about that. Assuming that it is filed with the SOS or is an ORAP lien and itay to resolve it since the creditor wont voluntarily remove it from the debtors credit file?
Regards,
Tuan Le
<image001.jpg>
DISCLAIMER: This e-mail may contain confidential information and may also be legally privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, as indicated above, please notify us immediately. In such event, you should not copy or use this e-mail for any purpose nor disclose its contents to anyone. Enclosed information and attachments remain the property of the LAW OFFICE OF STEVE LOPEZ. Opinions, conclusions, attachments, and neither information in this message that do not relate to the official business of the LAW OFFICE OF STEVE LOPEZ should be understood as my personal responsibility, and as neither given nor endorsed by the LAW OFFICE OF STEVE LOPEZ.
From:
The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Tuan:
Like Gary said the ORAP lien is only good for one year. As the bankruptcy case was filed several years ago, the only lien theoretically possible against personal property would be one recorded with the Secretary of State. If that property still exists you could reopen the case and file a 522(f) motion.
Real world question: Why would a potential home loan lender care about a personal property lien that has absolutely no impact on any real property against which the deed of trust would be recorded to secure the loan to your clients when there is no in personam liability anymore?
Answer: They wouldn't if they understood the impact of the discharge and the nature of the lien.
Obviously you need to confirm what type of lien was recorded. My guess is an abstract was recorded with the county recorder, which cannot attach to postpetition acquired property. You cannot file a 522(f) motion to avoid a lien against property that was not part of bk estate. You could theoretically file a motion for comfort order saying that no lien exists which would apply to postpetition acquired real property, but that strikes me as a waste of time and money.
Again I think you're dealing with a woefully undereducated potential lender.
Mark Jessee
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 25, 2016, at 4:05 PM, Tuan Le tuanl@stevelopezlaw.com [cdcbaa] wrote:
>
> Hi Gary,
>
>
>
> Now that I think about it, youre right about that. Assuming that it is filed with the SOS or is an ORAP lien and its still creating problems for the debtor years later what would be the way to resolve it since the creditor wont voluntarily remove it from the debtor>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Tuan Le
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail may contain confidential information and may also be legally privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, as indicated above, please notify us immediately. In such event, you should not copy or use this e-mail for any purpose nor disclose its contents to anyone. Enclosed information and attachments remain the property of the LAW OFFICE OF STEVE LOPEZ. Opinions, conclusions, attachments, and neither information in this message that do not relate to the official business of the LAW OFFICE OF STEVE LOPEZ should be understood as my personal responsibility, and as neither given nor endorsed by the LAW OFFICE OF STEVE LOPEZ.
>
>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 3:25 PM
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Personal Lien Discharged Chapter 7
>
>
>
>
>
> I am not familiar with any money judgments that can be recorded with a county recorder's office to create personal property liens. Typically, abstracts or certified judgments create real property liens only, assuming they are properly recorded in the appropriate county recorder's office. Personal property liens are typically created by filing a notice of judgment lien with the CA Secretary of State, and they are of limited scope and duration (I think 5 years, but they can be renewed). An ORAP lien, which is another post-judgment property lien, is only one year in duration. Are any of these the type of the lien to which your client is referring? Or is there something else I missed?
>
>
>
> Gary R. Wallace
>
> Law Office of Gary R. Wallace
>
> 1950 Sawtelle Boulevard, Suite 120
>
> Los Angeles, CA 90025
>
> Email: garyrwallace@ymail.com
>
> Office: (310) 571-3511
>
>
>
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 12:34 PM
> Subject: [cdcbaa] Personal Lien Discharged Chapter 7
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear List,
>
> I received a call from a PC regarding a Chapter 7 BK they filed in pro se years ago. They stated that they received a discharge on the case. The problem is that there was a judgment rendered against them and the creditor filed a lien with the county that attached to their name and personal property prior to the BK filing and without their knowledge so it was not listed on the schedules. Fast forward, they tried to apply for a home loan and were denied because there is this lien against them filed with the county.
>
> I've dealt with judgement liens on real property but not ones like this. Since this lien was never perfected against any specific property and if the debtor no longer has the property listed on Schedule B, does it survive the bankruptcy? Creditor has already stated that they would not release the lien voluntarily. Would filing the discharge order with the county if possible, be enough?
>
> At this point since the creditor will not voluntarily remove it, I assume that I will need to file a motion to reopen and motion to avoid the lien against all of the debtors property listed on Schedule B. Is this correct?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tuan Le
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Like Gary said the ORAP lien is only good for one year. As the bankruptcy case was filed several years ago, the only lien theoretically possible against personal property would be one recorded with the Secretary of State. If that property still exists you could reopen the case and file a 522(f) motion. Real world question: Why would a potential home loan lender care about a personal property lien that has absolutely no impact on any real property against which the deed of trust would be recorded to secure the loan to your clients when there is no in personam liability anymore? Answer: They wouldn't if they understood the impact of the discharge and the nature of the lien. Obviously you need to confirm what type of lien was recorded. My guess is an abstract was recorded with the county recorder, which cannot attach to postpetition acquired property. You cannot file a 522(f) motion to avoid a lien against property that was not part of bk estate. You could theoretically file a motion for comfort order saying that no lien exists which would apply to postpetition acquired real property, but that strikes me as a waste of time and money.Again I think you're dealing with a woefully undereducated potential lender. Mark JesseeSent from my iPhoneOn May 25, 2016, at 4:05 PM, Tuan Le tuanl@stevelopezlaw.com [cdcbaa] <cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Gary,

Now that I think about it, youre right about that. Assuming that it is filed with the SOS or is an ORAP lien and its still creating problems for the debtor years later what
would be the way to resolve it since the creditor wont voluntarily remove it from the debtors credit file?

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

If debtor was able to exempt all personal property listed in the schedules, reopen the case and file a motion to avoid the lien.
Everything acquired post-petition is not subject to attachment and would be a violation of the discharge injunction.
Very truly yours,
Shai Oved
The Law Offices of Shai Oved
7445 Topanga Cyn. Blvd., Suite 220
Canoga Park, California 91303
Tel: (818) 992-6588
Fax: (818) 992-6511
Email: ssoesq@aol.com
www.shaioved.com
________________
The information contained in this email is intended only for the individual or entity named above and may contain attorney privileged and confidential information. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copy of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you received this communication in error, please immediately notify us by the telephone number above and return any hard copies to us via the postal service.. The Law Offices of Shai Oved is a debt relief agency which helps people file for bankruptcy under the Bankruptcy Code. Shai Oved is a Certified Bankruptcy Law Specialist by The State Bar of California Board of Legal Specialization.
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 26, 2016, at 4:35 AM, Tuan Le tuanl@stevelopezlaw.com [cdcbaa] wrote:
>
> Hi Gary,
>
>
>
> Now that I think about it, youre right about that. Assuming that it is filed with the SOS or is an ORAP lien and its still creating problems for the debtor years later what would be the way to resolve it since the creditor wont voluntarily remove it from the debtor>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Tuan Le
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail may contain confidential information and may also be legally privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, as indicated above, please notify us immediately. In such event, you should not copy or use this e-mail for any purpose nor disclose its contents to anyone. Enclosed information and attachments remain the property of the LAW OFFICE OF STEVE LOPEZ. Opinions, conclusions, attachments, and neither information in this message that do not relate to the official business of the LAW OFFICE OF STEVE LOPEZ should be understood as my personal responsibility, and as neither given nor endorsed by the LAW OFFICE OF STEVE LOPEZ.
>
>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 3:25 PM
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Personal Lien Discharged Chapter 7
>
>
>
>
>
> I am not familiar with any money judgments that can be recorded with a county recorder's office to create personal property liens. Typically, abstracts or certified judgments create real property liens only, assuming they are properly recorded in the appropriate county recorder's office. Personal property liens are typically created by filing a notice of judgment lien with the CA Secretary of State, and they are of limited scope and duration (I think 5 years, but they can be renewed). An ORAP lien, which is another post-judgment property lien, is only one year in duration. Are any of these the type of the lien to which your client is referring? Or is there something else I missed?
>
>
>
> Gary R. Wallace
>
> Law Office of Gary R. Wallace
>
> 1950 Sawtelle Boulevard, Suite 120
>
> Los Angeles, CA 90025
>
> Email: garyrwallace@ymail.com
>
> Office: (310) 571-3511
>
>
>
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 12:34 PM
> Subject: [cdcbaa] Personal Lien Discharged Chapter 7
>
>
>
>
>
> Dear List,
>
> I received a call from a PC regarding a Chapter 7 BK they filed in pro se years ago. They stated that they received a discharge on the case. The problem is that there was a judgment rendered against them and the creditor filed a lien with the county that attached to their name and personal property prior to the BK filing and without their knowledge so it was not listed on the schedules. Fast forward, they tried to apply for a home loan and were denied because there is this lien against them filed with the county.
>
> I've dealt with judgement liens on real property but not ones like this. Since this lien was never perfected against any specific property and if the debtor no longer has the property listed on Schedule B, does it survive the bankruptcy? Creditor has already stated that they would not release the lien voluntarily. Would filing the discharge order with the county if possible, be enough?
>
> At this point since the creditor will not voluntarily remove it, I assume that I will need to file a motion to reopen and motion to avoid the lien against all of the debtors property listed on Schedule B. Is this correct?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tuan Le
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

I am not familiar with any money judgments that can be recorded with a county recorder's office to create personal property liens. Typically, abstracts or certified judgments create real property liens only, assuming they are properly recorded in the appropriate county recorder's office. ment lien with the CA Secretary of State, and they are of limited scope and duration (I think 5 years, but they can be renewed). An ORAP lien, which is another post-judgment property lien, is only one year in duration. ng? Or is there something else I missed? Gary R. WallaceLaw Office of Gary R. Wallace1950 Sawtelle Boulevard, Suite 120Los Angeles, CA 90025Email: garyrwallace@ymail.comOffice: (310) 571-3511
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 12:34 PM
Subject: [cdcbaa] Personal Lien Discharged Chapter 7
I received a call from a PC regarding a Chapter 7 BK they filed in pro se years ago. They stated that they received a discharge on the case.creditor filed a lien with the county that attached to their name and personal property prior to the BK filing and without their knowledge so it was not listed on the schedules. Fast forward, they tried to apply for a home loan and were denied because there is this lien against them filed with the county.
I've dealt with judgement liens on real property but not ones like this.f the debtor no longer has the property listed on Schedule B, does it survive the bankruptcy? Creditor has already stated that they would not release the lien voluntarily. Would filing the discharge order with the county if possible, be enough?
At this point since the creditor will not voluntarily remove it, I assume that I will need to file a motion to reopen and motion to avoid the lien against all of the debtors property listed on Schedule B. Is this correct?
Thanks,
Tuan Le

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Reply-To: "MARIA W. TAM"
X-Original-Return-Path: "MARIA W. TAM"
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: groups-system
Reopen the case and do a motion to avoid lien. I have done this before and
I was successful in removing the judgment lien. In fact, the creditor
attorney was so scared, he filed paper work in my motion to avoid lien
trying to justify why he would not voluntarily remove the lien. He was
afraid that I may ask for sanctions for violation of automatic stay.
On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 1:39 PM, R Grace Rodriguez rgracelaw@gmail.com
[cdcbaa] wrote:
>
>
> If you re-open the bankruptcy and file the 522(f) motion is that a
> possibility? Would they qualify?
>
>
>
> R. Grace Rodriguez, Esq.
> Full service Real Estate Attorney &
> California State Bar
> Certified Bankruptcy Specialist
> OFF: (818) 734-7223
> CEL: (818) 554-9922
>
>
>
Reopen the case and do a motion to avoid lien. I have done this before and I was successful in removing the judgment lien. motion to avoid lien trying to justify why he would not voluntarily remove the lien. He was afraid that I may ask for sanctions for violation of automatic stay. On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 1:39 PM, R Grace Rodriguez rgracelaw@gmail.com [cdcbaa] <cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Certified Bankruptcy Specialist OFF: (818) 734-7223CEL:

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

If you re-open the bankruptcy and file the 522(f) motion is that a
possibility? Would they qualify?
R. Grace Rodriguez, Esq.
Full service Real Estate Attorney &
California State Bar
Certified Bankruptcy Specialist
OFF: (818) 734-7223
CEL: (818) 554-9922
If you re-open the bankruptcy and file the 522(f) motion is that a possibility? Would they qualify?
The post was migrated from Yahoo.

What exactly is the nature of the lien? Are you referring to an abstract of judgment recorded with the county, which last I checked only impacts real property, or was it actually recorded with Secretary of State to establish a lien on personal property?
Regardless, it's an empty lien. Presuming this was not a section 523(a)(3) debt, it was discharged. Liens related to discharged debts do not apply to assets acquired postpetition.
You need to educate the lender as to the impact of In re Beezley and In re Todd Nielson or tell your client to find a new lender that has a clue!
Mark Jessee
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 25, 2016, at 12:34 PM, tuanl@stevelopezlaw.com [cdcbaa] wrote:
>
> Dear List,
>
> I received a call from a PC regarding a Chapter 7 BK they filed in pro se years ago. They stated that they received a discharge on the case. The problem is that there was a judgment rendered against them and the creditor filed a lien with the county that attached to their name and personal property prior to the BK filing and without their knowledge so it was not listed on the schedules. Fast forward, they tried to apply for a home loan and were denied because there is this lien against them filed with the county.
>
> I've dealt with judgement liens on real property but not ones like this. Since this lien was never perfected against any specific property and if the debtor no longer has the property listed on Schedule B, does it survive the bankruptcy? Creditor has already stated that they would not release the lien voluntarily. Would filing the discharge order with the county if possible, be enough?
>
> At this point since the creditor will not voluntarily remove it, I assume that I will need to file a motion to reopen and motion to avoid the lien against all of the debtors property listed on Schedule B. Is this correct?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tuan Le
>
>
>
>
>
>

The post was migrated from Yahoo.