Central District Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney's Association

The $500,000 has to be paid within 5 years or 3 years? How do you convince the judge or lender that you could refinance the $500,000 to pay it off?
Thanks
Paul Horn, Esq., CPA
Law Office of Paul Horn
Asset Protection
626 695 7310
626 614 0945
________________________________
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 11:19:34 AM
Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] Re: Modifying Mortgage on Investment Real Property
Keith is correct. Of course, if the dividend to unsecureds under the plan is 0, then the $100,000 gets nothing. The $400K plus Till does need to be paid through the plan and no part of it may come out of the Debtor's pockets -- i.e., basically, the rent collected from the property has to pay for the property or someone else needs to make bona fide payments for the property-- I've had grown children not living at home pay for the property in the past without objection from the Trustee. Bottom line is that the ability to bifurcate the debt into secured and unsecured (that is, cramdown as that term is used in Chapter 13 cases) is useless in most Chapter 13 cases because the payment period is too short.
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 10:27 AM, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>>
>
>>
> I believe the following is accurate:
>
>
>1. You can not cram down debt on a personal residence -- only on rental property or a 2nd property) [Section 1322(a)(2)]
>
>
>
>2. Assuming this is not the principal residence, then in your scenario: $500,000 is secured and $100,000 is unsecured. Both items would have to
> be paid in your Ch13 Plan.
>
>
>3. This means $500,000 paid out over 60 months (with interest per in re Till) with the $100,000 paid out at what ever the percentage is to the
> unsecured creditors over 60 months. This means that there are no longer direct payments being made to the 1st TD outside the plan.
>
>
>The negative here, of course, is that you have significant shortened the term of the original loan.
>
>
>
>
>KEITH ALAN HIGGINBOTHAM
>
>Pedro Mayser, Office Manager
>THE LAW OFFICES OF KEITH ALAN HIGGINBOTHAM
>255 S. Grand Avenue, Suite #2109
>Los Angeles, CA 90012-3045
>Phone: 213.620.0176
>Facsimile: 213.613.1200
>
>HigginbothamLaw@ aol.com
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups. com
>>Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 10:09 am
>>Subject: [cdcbaa] Re: Modifying Mortgage on Investment Real Property
>
>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>>
>>
>
>
>>
>
>
>Pardon me for reviving a December 2008 posting, but I have a question about this.
>
>>
>Hypo for Ch 13:
>
>>
>Investment Property FMV $500,000
>>
>First Mortgage $600,000
>
>>
>Therefore, unsecured portion of first $100,000
>
>>
>A) If you want to cramdown this mortgage, are you saying the $100,000 must be paid in full during the life of the plan?
>
>>
>B) Is the payment on the $500,000 secured portion a direct payment to the lender? If so, how do you calculate payment amount?
>
>>
>Thanks,
>
>>
>Donny Brand
>>
>Brand & Spellman PC
>>
>3836 E Anaheim St
>>
>Long Beach, CA 90804
>>
>Telephone: (562) 438-7500
>>
>Facsimile: (562) 438-8500
>
>>
>--- In cdcbaa@yahoogroups. com, "James T. King" wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Where the original contract terms are modified and it is not the curing
>>
>> of a default then the entire claim must be paid through the plan. And
>>
>> see 1325(a)(5)(B) (ii) and (iii).
>>
>>
>>
>> Jim King
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Of Alik Segal
>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 9:49 AM
>>
>> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups. com; bk@...
>>
>> Subject: [cdcbaa] Modifying Mortgage on Investment Real Property
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> When a mortgage on an investment property is modified per 1322(b)(2),
>>
>> must a
>>
>> debtor pay the modified amount in full over the life of the chapter 13
>>
>> plan
>>
>> or can it be on the same term of years as the original mortgage note.
>>
>>
>>
>> What is the 9th circuit law?
>>
>>
>>
>> Has Judge Ellen Carroll in Los Angeles ruled on this issue?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>>
>>
>> Alik Segal
>>
>> Alik.Segal@. .. ;
>>
>> 310-367-3626
>>
>>
>
>
Giovanni Orantes, Esq.
Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 1980
Los Angeles, CA 90010
Tel: (213) 389-4362
Phone: (888) 619-8222 x101
Fax: (877) 789-5776
e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
website: www.gobklaw. com
WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY, RIVERSIDE, SAN BERNARDINO AND SANTA BARBARA.
Note: The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify us by telephone or e-mail and delete the original e-mail
IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with requirements imposed by the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
The $500,000 has to be paid within 5 years or 3 years? How do you convince the judge or lender that you could refinance the $500,000 to pay it off?Thanks Paul Horn, Esq., CPALaw Office of Paul HornAsset Protection626 695 7310626 614 0945From: Giovanni Orantes <go@gobklaw.com>To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.comSent: Fri, May 14, 2010 11:19:34 AMSubject: Re: [cdcbaa] Re: Modifying Mortgage on Investment Real Property

Keith is correct. Of course, if the dividend to unsecureds under the plan is 0, then the $100,000 gets nothing. The $400K plus Till does need to be paid through the plan and no part of it may come out of the Debtor's pockets -- i.e., basically, the rent collected from the property has to pay for the property or someone else needs to make bona fide payments for the property-- I've had grown children not living at home pay for the property in the past without objection from the Trustee. Bottom line is that the ability to bifurcate the debt into secured and unsecured (that is, cramdown as that term is used in Chapter 13 cases) is useless in most Chapter 13 cases because the payment period is too short.
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 10:27 AM, <higginbothamlaw@ aol.com> wrote:

I believe the following is accurate:
1. You can not cram down debt on a personal residence -- only on rental property or a 2nd property) [Section 1322(a)(2)]
2. Assuming this is not the principal residence, then in your scenario: $500,000 is secured and $100,000 is unsecured. Both items would have to
be paid in your Ch13 Plan.
3. This means $500,000 paid out over 60 months (with interest per in re Till) with the $100,000 paid out at what ever the percentage is to the
unsecured creditors over 60 months. This means that there are no longer direct payments being made to the 1st TD outside the plan.
The negative here, of course, is that you have significant shortened the term of the original loan.
KEITH ALAN HIGGINBOTHAM

Pedro Mayser, Office Manager
THE LAW OFFICES OF KEITH ALAN HIGGINBOTHAM
255 S. Grand Avenue, Suite #2109
Los Angeles, CA 90012-3045
Phone: 213.620.0176
Facsimile: 213.613.1200

HigginbothamLaw@ aol.com
-----Original Message-----
@yahoo.com" target"_blank" href"mailto:brandspellman@yahoo.com">brandspellman@ yahoo.com>
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 10:09 am
Subject: [cdcbaa] Re: Modifying Mortgage on Investment Real Property

Pardon me for reviving a December 2008 posting, but I have a question about this.
Hypo for Ch 13:
Investment Property FMV $500,000
First Mortgage $600,000
Therefore, unsecured portion of first $100,000
A) If you want to cramdown this mortgage, are you saying the $100,000 must be paid in full during the life of the plan?
B) Is the payment on the $500,000 secured portion a direct payment to the lender? If so, how do you calculate payment amount?
Thanks,
Donny Brand
Brand & Spellman PC
3836 E Anaheim St
Long Beach, CA 90804
Telephone: (562) 438-7500
Facsimile: (562) 438-8500
et"_blank" href"mailto:cdcbaa%40yahoogroups.com">cdcbaa@yahoogroups. com, "James T. King" <king@...> wrote:
>
> Where the original contract terms are modified and it is not the curing
> of a default then the entire claim must be paid through the plan. And
> see 1325(a)(5)(B) (ii) and (iii).
>
> Jim King
>
>
>
target"_blank" href"mailto:cdcbaa%40yahoogroups.com">cdcbaa@yahoogroups. com [mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf
> Of Alik Segal
> Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 9:49 AM
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups. com; bk@...
> Subject: [cdcbaa] Modifying Mortgage on Investment Real Property
>
>
>
>
> When a mortgage on an investment property is modified per 1322(b)(2),
> must a
> debtor pay the modified amount in full over the life of the chapter 13
> plan
> or can it be on the same term of years as the original mortgage note.
>
> What is the 9th circuit law?
>
> Has Judge Ellen Carroll in Los Angeles ruled on this issue?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Alik Segal
> Alik.Segal@. .. <mailto:Alik. Segal%40gmail. com>;
> 310-367-3626
>
-- Giovanni Orantes, Esq. Orantes Law Firm, P.C.3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 1980Los Angeles, CA 90010Tel: (213) 389-4362Phone: (888) 619-8222 x101Fax: (877) 789-5776
e-mail: go@gobklaw.comwebsite:
The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Keith is correct. Of course, if the dividend to unsecureds under the plan
is 0, then the $100,000 gets nothing. The $400K plus Till does need to be
paid through the plan and no part of it may come out of the Debtor's pockets
property or someone else needs to make bona fide payments for the property--
I've had grown children not living at home pay for the property in the past
without objection from the Trustee. Bottom line is that the ability to
bifurcate the debt into secured and unsecured (that is, cramdown as that
term is used in Chapter 13 cases) is useless in most Chapter 13 cases
because the payment period is too short.
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 10:27 AM, wrote:
>
>
> I believe the following is accurate:
>
> 1. You can not cram down debt on a personal residence -- only on rental
> property or a 2nd property) [Section 1322(a)(2)]
>
> 2. Assuming this is not the principal residence, then in your scenario:
> $500,000 is secured and $100,000 is unsecured. Both items would have to
> be paid in your Ch13 Plan.
>
> 3. This means $500,000 paid out over 60 months (with interest per in re
> Till) with the $100,000 paid out at what ever the percentage is to the
> unsecured creditors over 60 months. This means that there are no
> longer direct payments being made to the 1st TD outside the plan.
>
> The negative here, of course, is that you have significant shortened the
> term of the original loan.
>
>
> *KEITH ALAN HIGGINBOTHAM*
> **
> *Pedro Mayser, Office Manager*
> *THE LAW OFFICES OF KEITH ALAN HIGGINBOTHAM*
> *255 S. Grand Avenue, Suite #2109*
> *Los Angeles, CA 90012-3045*
> *Phone: 213.620.0176*
> *Facsimile: 213.613.1200 *
>
> *HigginbothamLaw@aol.com*
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 10:09 am
> Subject: [cdcbaa] Re: Modifying Mortgage on Investment Real Property
>
>
> Pardon me for reviving a December 2008 posting, but I have a question
> about this.
>
> Hypo for Ch 13:
>
> Investment Property FMV $500,000
> First Mortgage $600,000
>
> Therefore, unsecured portion of first $100,000
>
> A) If you want to cramdown this mortgage, are you saying the $100,000 must
> be paid in full during the life of the plan?
>
> B) Is the payment on the $500,000 secured portion a direct payment to the
> lender? If so, how do you calculate payment amount?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Donny Brand
> Brand & Spellman PC
> 3836 E Anaheim St
> Long Beach, CA 90804
> Telephone: (562) 438-7500
> Facsimile: (562) 438-8500
>
> --- In cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com , "James T. King"
> wrote:
> >
> > Where the original contract terms are modified and it is not the curing
> > of a default then the entire claim must be paid through the plan. And
> > see 1325(a)(5)(B)(ii) and (iii).
> >
> > Jim King
> >
> >
> >
> cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf
> > Of Alik Segal
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 9:49 AM
> > To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com ; bk@...
> > Subject: [cdcbaa] Modifying Mortgage on Investment Real Property
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > When a mortgage on an investment property is modified per 1322(b)(2),
> > must a
> > debtor pay the modified amount in full over the life of the chapter 13
> > plan
> > or can it be on the same term of years as the original mortgage note.
> >
> > What is the 9th circuit law?
> >
> > Has Judge Ellen Carroll in Los Angeles ruled on this issue?
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Alik Segal
> > Alik.Segal@... ;
>
> > 310-367-3626
> >
>
>
>
Giovanni Orantes, Esq.
Orantes Law Firm, P.C.
3435 Wilshire Blvd. Suite 1980
Los Angeles, CA 90010
Tel: (213) 389-4362
Phone: (888) 619-8222 x101
Fax: (877) 789-5776
e-mail: go@gobklaw.com
website: www.gobklaw.com
WE ARE A "DEBT RELIEF AGENCY" AS DEFINED BY FEDERAL LAW.
SERVING BAKERSFIELD, LOS ANGELES, ORANGE COUNTY, RIVERSIDE, SAN BERNARDINO
AND SANTA BARBARA.
Note: The information contained in this e-mail message is confidential
information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named. If
the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent
responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this communication
is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error,
please immediately notify us by telephone or e-mail and delete the original
e-mail at (213) 389-4362 or (888) 619-8222.
IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: In order to comply with requirements imposed by
the Internal Revenue Service, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice
contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended
to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties
under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing, or
recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
Keith is correct. Of course, if the dividend to unsecureds under the plan is 0, then the $100,000 gets nothing. The $400K plus Till does need to be paid through the plan and no part of it may come out of the Debtor's pockets -- i.e., basically, the rent collected from the property has to pay for the property or someone else needs to make bona fide payments for the property-- I've had grown children not living at home pay for the property in the past without objection from the Trustee. Bottom line is that the ability to bifurcate the debt into secured and unsecured (that is, cramdown as that term is used in Chapter 13 cases) is useless in most Chapter 13 cases because the payment period is too short.
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 10:27 AM,
The post was migrated from Yahoo.

I believe the following is accurate:
1. You can not cram down debt on a personal residence -- only on rental property or a 2nd property) [Section 1322(a)(2)]
2. Assuming this is not the principal residence, then in your scenario: $500,000 is secured and $100,000 is unsecured. Both items would have to
be paid in your Ch13 Plan.
3. This means $500,000 paid out over 60 months (with interest per in re Till) with the $100,000 paid out at what ever the percentage is to the
unsecured creditors over 60 months. This means that there are no longer direct payments being made to the 1st TD outside the plan.
The negative here, of course, is that you have significant shortened the term of the original loan.
KEITH ALAN HIGGINBOTHAM
Pedro Mayser, Office Manager
THE LAW OFFICES OF KEITH ALAN HIGGINBOTHAM
255 S. Grand Avenue, Suite #2109
Los Angeles, CA 90012-3045
Phone: 213.620.0176
Facsimile: 213.613.1200
HigginbothamLaw@aol.com
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 10:09 am
Subject: [cdcbaa] Re: Modifying Mortgage on Investment Real Property
Pardon me for reviving a December 2008 posting, but I have a question about this.
Hypo for Ch 13:
Investment Property FMV $500,000
First Mortgage $600,000
Therefore, unsecured portion of first $100,000
A) If you want to cramdown this mortgage, are you saying the $100,000 must be paid in full during the life of the plan?
B) Is the payment on the $500,000 secured portion a direct payment to the lender? If so, how do you calculate payment amount?
Thanks,
Donny Brand
Brand & Spellman PC
3836 E Anaheim St
Long Beach, CA 90804
Telephone: (562) 438-7500
Facsimile: (562) 438-8500
>
> Where the original contract terms are modified and it is not the curing
> of a default then the entire claim must be paid through the plan. And
> see 1325(a)(5)(B)(ii) and (iii).
>
> Jim King
>
>
>
> Of Alik Segal
> Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 9:49 AM
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com; bk@...
> Subject: [cdcbaa] Modifying Mortgage on Investment Real Property
>
>
>
>
> When a mortgage on an investment property is modified per 1322(b)(2),
> must a
> debtor pay the modified amount in full over the life of the chapter 13
> plan
> or can it be on the same term of years as the original mortgage note.
>
> What is the 9th circuit law?
>
> Has Judge Ellen Carroll in Los Angeles ruled on this issue?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Alik Segal
> Alik.Segal@... ;
> 310-367-3626
>
I believe the following is accurate:
1. You can not cram down debt on a personal residence -- only on rental property or a 2nd property) [Section 1322(a)(2)]
2. Assuming this is not the principal residence, then in your scenario: $500,000 is secured and $100,000 is unsecured. Both items would have to
be paid in your Ch13 Plan.
3. This means $500,000 paid out over 60 months (with interest per in re Till) with the $100,000 paid out at what ever the percentage is to the
unsecured creditors over 60 months. This means that there are no longer direct payments being made to the 1st TD outside the plan.
The negative here, of course, is that you have significant shortened the term of the original loan.
KEITH ALAN HIGGINBOTHAM

Pedro Mayser, Office Manager
THE LAW OFFICES OF KEITH ALAN HIGGINBOTHAM
255 S. Grand Avenue, Suite #2109
Los Angeles, CA 90012-3045
Phone: 213.620.0176
Facsimile: 213.613.1200

, "James T. King" <king@...> wrote:
>
> Where the original contract terms are modified and it is not the curing
> of a default then the entire claim must be paid through the plan. And
> see 1325(a)(5)(B)(ii) and (iii).
>
> Jim King
>
>
>
om [mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Alik Segal
> Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 9:49 AM
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com; bk@...
> Subject: [cdcbaa] Modifying Mortgage on Investment Real Property
>
>
>
>
> When a mortgage on an investment property is modified per 1322(b)(2),
> must a
> debtor pay the modified amount in full over the life of the chapter 13
> plan
> or can it be on the same term of years as the original mortgage note.
>
> What is the 9th circuit law?
>
> Has Judge Ellen Carroll in Los Angeles ruled on this issue?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Alik Segal
> Alik.Segal@... <mailto:Alik.Segal%40gmail.com>;
> 310-367-3626
>
#AOLMsgPart_2_45195dec-ffed-4b56-a5f3-1c790f04cc7e td{color: black;} #AOLMsgPart_2_45195dec-ffed-4b56-a5f3-1c790f04cc7e
The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Pardon me for reviving a December 2008 posting, but I have a question about this.
Hypo for Ch 13:
Investment Property FMV $500,000
First Mortgage $600,000
Therefore, unsecured portion of first $100,000
A) If you want to cramdown this mortgage, are you saying the $100,000 must be paid in full during the life of the plan?
B) Is the payment on the $500,000 secured portion a direct payment to the lender? If so, how do you calculate payment amount?
Thanks,
Donny Brand
Brand & Spellman PC
3836 E Anaheim St
Long Beach, CA 90804
Telephone: (562) 438-7500
Facsimile: (562) 438-8500
>
> Where the original contract terms are modified and it is not the curing
> of a default then the entire claim must be paid through the plan. And
> see 1325(a)(5)(B)(ii) and (iii).
>
> Jim King
>
>
>
> Of Alik Segal
> Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 9:49 AM
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com; bk@...
> Subject: [cdcbaa] Modifying Mortgage on Investment Real Property
>
>
>
>
> When a mortgage on an investment property is modified per 1322(b)(2),
> must a
> debtor pay the modified amount in full over the life of the chapter 13
> plan
> or can it be on the same term of years as the original mortgage note.
>
> What is the 9th circuit law?
>
> Has Judge Ellen Carroll in Los Angeles ruled on this issue?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Alik Segal
> Alik.Segal@...
> 310-367-3626
>

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Where the original contract terms are modified and it is not the curing
of a default then the entire claim must be paid through the plan. And
see 1325(a)(5)(B)(ii) and (iii).
Jim King

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 6:04 PM
To: 'Alik Segal'; cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com; bk@nacba.org
Subject: RE: Modifying Mortgage on Investment Real Property
Client pays 750 in child support to his ex-wife for his teenage daughter.
The parenting arrangement is 80/20 (ex-wife/client).
What is his household size on the means test.
Thanks,
Alik Segal
Alik.Segal@gmail.com
310-367-3626

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Client pays 750 in child support to his ex-wife for his teenage daughter.
The parenting arrangement is 80/20 (ex-wife/client).
What is his household size on the means test.
Thanks,
Alik Segal
Alik.Segal@gmail.com
310-367-3626

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

When a mortgage on an investment property is modified per 1322(b)(2), must a
debtor pay the modified amount in full over the life of the chapter 13 plan
or can it be on the same term of years as the original mortgage note.
What is the 9th circuit law?
Has Judge Ellen Carroll in Los Angeles ruled on this issue?
Thank you,
Alik Segal
Alik.Segal@gmail.com
310-367-3626

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Modifying Mortgage on Investment Real Property . . .
I am about to file a Chapter 13 for a client who has just moved out of his
house and is about to rent it out.
1. The sagging property values have caused the first mortgage to become
partially unsecured. I will be stripping the 1st mortgage down to the value
of the property and otherwise modifying it under 1322(b)(2). The second
mortgage is completely unsecured, and I will be stripping it off completely.
Any suggestions for getting this accomplished?
2. What is the procedural device to strip the 1st mortgage down to the
property value?
3. What is the procedural device to modify the 1st mortgage under
1322(b)(2)?
4. If the 1st is stripped down to the property value, does the debtor still
have to cure the default? Or is it enough to make payments based on market
rate interest and 30 or 40 year amortization? What will the chapter 13 plan
look like?
5. Is it enough that the debtor moves out before filing? Is it important
for debtor to also list the house for rent (for example on cragslist.com)
before filing?
6. What if the debtor, after the plan is confirmed, (a) converts to chapter
7 or (b) dismisses his chapter 13 case? Will the modified mortgage remain
in force?
7. What if the debtor, after the plan is confirmed, (a) converts to chapter
7 or (b) dismisses his chapter 13 case and moves back into the house? Will
the modified mortgage remain in force?
Gratefully,
Alik Segal
Alik.Segal@gmail.com
310-367-3626

The post was migrated from Yahoo.