Central District Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney's Association

11 U.S.C. 101 (8) The term "consumer debt" means debt incurred by an individual primarily for a personal, family, or household purpose.
To me the word "incurred" means at the inception of the debt, because the "-ed" is past tense. Of course, it could mean prior to the filing of the petition as well if you're the creditors attorney. It is certainly a consumer debt now even if it wasn't when it was "incurred." I wonder what the case law has to say.

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Here is the flip-side of the typical issue. PC acquires real property,
with financing as a rental. PC rents a residence at another location.
Although equity is not an issue, PC decides to move into the rental property
shortly before seek to file chapter 7. Is the mortgage debt, incurred when
the property was rental, now consumer debt ?
Here is the flip-side of the typical issue. PC acquires real
property, with financing as a rental. PC rents a residence at
another location. Although equity is not an issue, PC decides to move
into the rental property shortly before seek to file chapter 7. Is
the mortgage debt, incurred when the property was rental, now consumer debt
?


The post was migrated from Yahoo.

I agree with the old guys

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Dennis:
I agree. Watch for my smiley faces, which mean facetious and/or tongue in
cheek. I used to post my tongue in cheek absurd arguments as a parody
without either the smiley face or the face to face wry smile with which I
write them, but I noted my comments were sometimes taken as serious. Now
the smiley face.
Pat
Patrick T. Green, Esq.
Fitzgerald & Green
Attorneys at Law
1010 E. Union Street
Suite 206
Pasadena, CA 91106
Tel: 626-449-8433
Fax: 626-449-0565
pat@fitzgreenlaw.com

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Pat:
If I purchased cars for a leasing company, which
leased cars to consumers, I wouldn't call that
consumer debt. Profit motive - business debt.
dennis
> Eric:
>
>
>
> Doesn't sound to me like a "debt incurred by an
> individual primarily for a
> personal, family or household purpose." However,
> the wiley creditor would
> say that since it is residential real property, the
> debtor clearly borrowed
> the money to buy the property with the intent to
> rent it to someone for
> their personal use, thus making it a consumer debt.
> Ergo, it is a consumer
> debt.
>
>
>
> Patrick T. Green, Esq.
>
> Fitzgerald & Green
>
> Attorneys at Law
>
> 1010 E. Union Street
>
> Suite 206
>
> Pasadena, CA 91106
>
> Tel: 626-449-8433
>
> Fax: 626-449-0565
>
> pat@fitzgreenlaw.com
>
>
>
> [mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> mitnicklaw@aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 7:14 AM
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [cdcbaa] consumer debt?
>
>
>
> Prospective debtor purchases a condo to live in, but
> never resides there,
> Instead, for over 1 year, he rents the condo and
> uses the rental income and
> the second T/D equity loan to pay the first T/D and
> other expenses of the
> condo.
>
>
>
> Is the financing consumer or business debt ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch
>

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

It's my impression that a business debt is one incurred (or
maintained) with a profit motive and everything else is consumer
(except taxes, for sure, and some torts, like the prosecutor in the
Duke lacrosse case, and other debts as the various courts get around
to enacting judicial legislation). I would vote that the debt is
business.
>
> Or: A recitation of the facts would be that the debtor bought the
property
> on x date, he never lived there and has always rented it. Is it
his
> subjective unrealized intent that matters or reality of its use?
And: who
> has the burden of showing his intent?
>
>
>
> Patrick T. Green, Esq.
>
> Fitzgerald & Green
>
> Attorneys at Law
>
> 1010 E. Union Street
>
> Suite 206
>
> Pasadena, CA 91106
>
> Tel: 626-449-8433
>
> Fax: 626-449-0565
>
> pat@...
>
>
>
Behalf Of
> mitnicklaw@...
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 7:14 AM
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [cdcbaa] consumer debt?
>
>
>
> Prospective debtor purchases a condo to live in, but never resides
there,
> Instead, for over 1 year, he rents the condo and uses the rental
income and
> the second T/D equity loan to pay the first T/D and other expenses
of the
> condo.
>
>
>
> Is the financing consumer or business debt ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch
>
> "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
>

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Or: A recitation of the facts would be that the debtor bought the property
on x date, he never lived there and has always rented it. Is it his
subjective unrealized intent that matters or reality of its use? And: who
has the burden of showing his intent?
Patrick T. Green, Esq.
Fitzgerald & Green
Attorneys at Law
1010 E. Union Street
Suite 206
Pasadena, CA 91106
Tel: 626-449-8433
Fax: 626-449-0565
pat@fitzgreenlaw.com

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Eric:
Doesn't sound to me like a "debt incurred by an individual primarily for a
personal, family or household purpose." However, the wiley creditor would
say that since it is residential real property, the debtor clearly borrowed
the money to buy the property with the intent to rent it to someone for
their personal use, thus making it a consumer debt. Ergo, it is a consumer
debt.
Patrick T. Green, Esq.
Fitzgerald & Green
Attorneys at Law
1010 E. Union Street
Suite 206
Pasadena, CA 91106
Tel: 626-449-8433
Fax: 626-449-0565
pat@fitzgreenlaw.com

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Prospective debtor purchases a condo to live in, but never resides there,
Instead, for over 1 year, he rents the condo and uses the rental income and the
second T/D equity loan to pay the first T/D and other expenses of the condo.


Is the financing consumer or business debt ?
**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.

The post was migrated from Yahoo.