Central District Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney's Association

Ok, I see your point. But, sometimes I get from out-of-state lenders
or equity funds reaffirmation agreements. As we discussed, maybe the
ultimate appellate issued is left to the pro per that signs a
reaffirmation, and the court enters an order on it after a hearing.
That order may give rise to the security first rule being triggered,
followed by a quiet title action that would release the collateral in
place of the personal judgment. File a chapter 13 to discharge the
personal property judgment? This could be the next waive, as were the
lien stripping cases!
>
> Lou:
>
>
>
> I have been out town for a week, so I am jumping in late on this.
As Jim
> Selth pointed out in an earlier post in this thread, the appropriate
way to
> list these mortgages on the statement of intention is to state that the
> debtor intends to keep and pay. The reasoning behind the keep and
pay case
> law has not changed with BAPCPA. The only thing that has changed is
that
> the ipso facto clause override of 365 has been excluded from
application to
> personal property by 521(a)(6). Thus RP should be listed as keep
and pay
> and as such will not create any rights in the creditor that they do
not have
> due to our anti deficiency statutes.
>
>
>
> Pat
>
>
>
> Patrick T. Green
>
> 1010 E. Union Street
>
> Suite 206
>
> Pasadena, CA 91106
>
> Tel: 626-449-8433
>
> Fax: 626-449-0565
>
> pat@...
>
>
>
Behalf Of
> Law Offices of Louis J. Esbin
> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 7:30 PM
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [cdcbaa] Re: listing debts secured by RP on Stmt. of Intention
>
>
>
> I believe California real property law controls in this situation.
> And, California is an anti-deficiency state, whereas most others are
> not. What would happen if a debt secured by a California residence
> was not listed on the Statement of Intentions? Is it being suggested
> that a lender can commence foreclosure? I'll take that case on! In
> the alternative, what if the debt is listed on the Statement of
> Intention, is it equally arguable that a lender can be forced under
> the Bankruptcy Code to obtain an order that would deem the debt the
> personal liability of the debtor; in other words, there would be a
> personal judgment of reaffirmation? That's would be the security
> first rule. I'll take that one too!
>
> These issues were first raised in the Claims MCLE we did last year.
> In February, we are going to have an MCLE on California mortgage and
> deed of trust practice under BAPCPA. Judge Bufford may be one
> panelist, I am another, and I am trying to get Chuck Hansen, who wrote
> the California Mortgage & Deed of Trust Practice Guide to come down
> from Oakland, where he practices. He and I are close friends, and we
> could not get a better authority. He is also professor of real
> property at Boalt Hall.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> --- In cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com , "Raj
> Wadhwani" wrote:
> >
> > You're right. Section 521 used to say "consumer". I just looked at my
> > black line edition & the work consumer is crossed out.
> >
> >
> >
> > Nonetheless, I typically just list all secured consumer debt in
the Stmt
> > of Intentions.
> >
> >
> >
> > Also, unless I'm mistaken, 521(a)(2) is not limited to personal
property
> > (even pre-BAPCPA).
> >
> >
> >
> > Raj T. Wadhwani
> >
> > Wadhwani Law Firm, APLC
> >
> > 15233 Ventura Blvd., Suite 1120
> >
> > Sherman Oaks, CA 91403
> >
> > Phone: (818) 784-0500
> >
> > Fax: (818) 784-0508
> >
> > raj@
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> [mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com ]
On Behalf
> > Of Mark JM
> > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:44 AM
> > To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] listing debts secured by RP on Stmt. of
Intention
> >
> >
> >
> > Where in 521(a)(2) (or elsewhere) does it limit this to consumer
debts?
> >
> >
> >
> > ______________________
> > Mark J. Markus
> > Law Office of Mark J. Markus
> > 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
> > Studio City, CA 91604-2652
> > (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
> > web: http://www.bklaw.com/
> > This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
> > ___________
> > NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law
office
> > of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended
> > for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note
> > that any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this
> > message is prohibited.
> > IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements
imposed
> > by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this
> > communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be
> > used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties
> > under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or
> > recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in
> > this communication (or in any attachment).
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> > To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
>
> >
> > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:15 AM
> >
> > Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] listing debts secured by RP on Stmt. of
> > Intention
> >
> >
> >
> > I do not list them because they are not "consumer debts secured
> > by personal property of the estate" if non-residential real property.
> > If residential real property then CA anti-deficiency statute renders
> > listing purchase money loan meaningless. For non-purchase money loan
> > (equity or refinance loan) secured by residence debtor is not required
> > to reaffirm the debt. However, I do indicate on Schedule A and D the
> > debtor's intent to surrender the property to the creditor or to
retain.
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > Mark JM wrote:
> >
> > This is more a matter of form over substance, but do any
> > of you list debts secured by real property on the statement of
> > intentions form? I think technically we're supposed to, although in
> > practice I suspect few of us do because none of the stated options
> > really applies--in California anyway.
> >
> >
> >
> > ______________________
> > Mark J. Markus
> > Law Office of Mark J. Markus
> > 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
> > Studio City, CA 91604-2652
> > (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
> > web: http://www.bklaw.com/
> > This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
> > ___________
> > NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information
> > from the law office of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The
> > information is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are
> > not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy, distribution or use
> > of the contents of this message is prohibited.
> > IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with
> > requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax
advice
> > contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended
> > or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i)
> > avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting,
> > marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter
> > addressed in this communication (or in any attachment).
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> >
> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
> > Mobile. Try it now.
> >

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Lou:
I have been out town for a week, so I am jumping in late on this. As Jim
Selth pointed out in an earlier post in this thread, the appropriate way to
list these mortgages on the statement of intention is to state that the
debtor intends to keep and pay. The reasoning behind the keep and pay case
law has not changed with BAPCPA. The only thing that has changed is that
the ipso facto clause override of 365 has been excluded from application to
personal property by 521(a)(6). Thus RP should be listed as keep and pay
and as such will not create any rights in the creditor that they do not have
due to our anti deficiency statutes.
Pat
Patrick T. Green
1010 E. Union Street
Suite 206
Pasadena, CA 91106
Tel: 626-449-8433
Fax: 626-449-0565
pat@fitzgreenlaw.com

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

The MCLE programs are recorded and are available from Dennis
McGoldrick in MP3 Format.
>
> Anyway we can informally record our MCLE programs for those who miss
them?
> Not even for credit, just for the information.
>
> -- Amy Kleinpeter
>
> On Dec 23, 2007 7:34 PM, Law Offices of Louis J. Esbin Esbinlaw@...> wrote:
>
> > Erik,
> >
> > This seems like an issue that the cdcbaa may be able to take a
> > position on to present to the membership, the United States trustee,
> > trustees, as well as judges. We will have several opportunities over
> > the next few months to do so at several of the MCLE programs that are
> > planned.
> >
> > Best regards to you, and all members... Merry Christmas and Happy New
> > Year.
> >
> >
> > --- In cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com , "Erik Clark"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Whatever the resolution, as long as the Tees are on board with us
> > not listing it I would be fine to leave it off. I just want to avoid
> > a slew of continued hearings due to this issue.
> > >
> > > Erik Clark
> > > Borowitz, Lozano & Clark, LLP
> > > 100 N. Barranca Avenue, Suite 250
> > > West Covina, CA 91791
> > > Office: (626) 332-8600
> > > Fax: (626) 332-8644
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> NEW ADDRESS!
>
> Amy E. C. Kleinpeter
> Law Offices of Amy E. Clark Kleinpeter
> 1489 E. Colorado Boulevard #206
> Pasadena, CA 91106
>
> www.amykleinpeter.com
>
> I am required to disclose that The Law Offices of Amy E. Clark
Kleinpeter is
> a
> Debt Relief Agency as defined by the United States Bankruptcy Act of
2005.
> I
> am a lawyer who proudly represents debtors in bankruptcy cases.
>

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

I agree. There are other issues as well that perhaps we can work on that deal with inconsistencies between Trustees. My staff continually complains about how Trustees do things differently (i.e., the e-mail acceptance of taxes).
Happy Holidays everyone - looks like 2008 is going to be a good year.
Unpaid Credit Cards Bedevil Americans
By RACHEL KONRAD and BOB PORTERFIELD,
Posted: 2007-12-23 17:25:03
SAN FRANCISCO (Dec. 23) - Americans are falling behind on their credit card payments at an alarming rate, sending delinquencies and defaults surging by double-digit percentages in the last year and prompting warnings of worse to come.
An Associated Press analysis of financial data from the country's largest card issuers also found that the greatest rise was among accounts more than 90 days in arrears.
Experts say these signs of the deterioration of finances of many households are partly a byproduct of the subprime mortgage crisis and could spell more trouble ahead for an already sputtering economy.
"Debt eventually leaks into other areas, whether it starts with the mortgage and goes to the credit card or vice versa," said Cliff Tan, a visiting scholar at Stanford University and an expert on credit risk. "We're starting to see leaks now."
The value of credit card accounts at least 30 days late jumped 26 percent to $17.3 billion in October from a year earlier at 17 large credit card trusts examined by the AP. That represented more than 4 percent of the total outstanding principal balances owed to the trusts on credit cards that were issued by banks such as Bank of America and Capital One and for retailers like Home Depot and Wal-Mart .
At the same time, defaults - when lenders essentially give up hope of ever being repaid and write off the debt - rose 18 percent to almost $961 million in October, according to filings made by the trusts with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Serious delinquencies also are up sharply: Some of the nation's biggest lenders - including Advanta, GE Money Bank and HSBC - reported increases of 50 percent or more in the value of accounts that were at least 90 days delinquent when compared with the same period a year ago.
The AP analyzed data representing about 325 million individual accounts held in trusts that were created by credit card issuers in order to sell the debt to investors - similar to how many banks packaged and sold subprime mortgage loans. Together, they represent about 45 percent of the $920 billion the Federal Reserve counts as credit card debt owed by Americans.
Until recently, credit card default rates had been running close to record lows, providing one of the few profit growth areas for the nation's banks, which continue to flood Americans' mailboxes with billions of letters monthly offering easy sign-ups for new plastic.
Even after the recent spike in bad loans, the credit card business is still quite lucrative, thanks to interest rates that can run as high as 36 percent, plus late fees and other penalties.
But what is coming into sharper focus from the detailed monthly SEC filings from the trusts is a snapshot of the worrisome state of Americans' ability to juggle growing and expensive credit card debt.
The trend carried into November. As of Friday, all of the trusts that filed reports for the month show increases in both delinquencies and defaults over November 2006, and many show sequential increases from October.
Discover accounts 30 days or more delinquent jumped 25,716 from November 2006 and had increased 6,000 between October and November this year.
Many economists expect delinquencies and defaults to rise further after the holiday shopping season.
Mark Zandi, chief economist and co-founder of Moody's Economy.com Inc., cited mounting mortgage problems that began after this summer's subprime financial shock as one of the culprits, as well as a weakening job market in the Midwest, South and parts of the West, where real-estate markets have been particularly hard hit.
"Credit card quality will continue to erode throughout next year," Zandi said.
Economists also cite America's long-standing attitude that debt - even high-interest credit card debt - is not a big deal.
"The desires of consumers to want, want, want, spend, spend, spend - it's the fabric of our nation," said Howard Dvorkin, founder of Consolidated Credit Counseling Services in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., which has advised more than 5 million people in debt. "But you always have to pay the piper, and that can be a very painful process."
Filing for bankruptcy is no longer a solution for many Americans because of a 2005 change to federal law that made it harder to walk away from debt. Those with above-average incomes are barred from declaring Chapter 7 - where debts can be wiped out entirely - except under special circumstances and must instead file a repayment plan under the more restrictive Chapter 13.
Personal finance coaches say the problem is most grave for individuals who are months delinquent or already in default - like Kenneth McGuinness, a postal clerk from Flushing, N.Y.
His credit card struggles began nine years ago, when he charged his son's college tuition and books. He thought he was being clever: His credit card's 6 percent "teaser" interest rate was lower than the 8.6 percent interest on a college loan.
McGuinness, 61, soon began using Citibank and Chase cards for food, dental work and copays on doctor visits and minor surgeries. Interest rates surged to 30 percent. Now he's $37,000 in debt and plans to file for bankruptcy in February.
"I tried to pay what I could and go after the high-interest accounts first," McGuinness said. "But it just kept getting higher and higher, and with late charges and surcharges I was going backward."
In the wake of the jump in defaults on subprime mortgage loans made to borrowers with poor credit histories, banks have been less willing to allow consumers to consolidate credit card debt into home equity loans or refinanced mortgages. That is leaving some with no option but to miss payments, economists said.
Investors also are backing away from buying securitized credit-card debt, said Moshe Orenbuch, managing director at Credit Suisse. But that probably has more to do with concerns about the overall health of the U.S. economy, he said.
"It's been getting tougher to finance any kind of structured finance - mortgages, automobile loans, credit cards, student loans," said Orenbuch, who specializes in the credit industry.
Capital One Financial Corp. reported that delinquencies and defaults are highest in regions where troubled mortgages are concentrated, including California and Florida.
Among the trusts examined, Bank of America Corp. had the highest delinquency volume, with overdue accounts valued at $5 billion. Bank of America defaults in October were almost 200 percent higher than in October 2006.
A spokesman for Charlotte, N.C.-based Bank of America declined to comment.
Other trusts - including those linked to Capital One, American Express Co., Discover Financial Services Co. and those containing "branded" cards from Wal-Mart Stores Inc., Home Depot Inc., Lowe's Companies Inc., Target Corp. and Circuit City Stores Inc. - also reported striking increases in year-over-year delinquency and default rates for October. Most banks and other financial institutions holding credit card debt on their own books also reported double-digit increases in delinquencies.
The one exception in October was JPMorgan Chase & Co.'s credit card trust, which reported declines in both delinquencies and defaults. A Chase spokesperson attributed this to its focus on prime borrowers and aggressive account management.
By contrast, Capital One executives told analysts last month that the company projected 2008 write-offs of credit card debt to be at least $4.9 billion. This projection, analysts were told, took into account growing delinquencies and potential effects if the housing market continued its downward slide.
Capital One spokeswoman Julie Rakes said the increase in delinquencies could be due to an accounting change last summer, which shortened the grace period between when statements were issued and the due date.
Capital One also reported that the number of accounts 90 days or more in arrears had increased between October and November. More than 1.2 million of Capital One's 30 million accounts were either delinquent or in default.
Many personal financial coaches expect this trend to accelerate in 2008 - particularly among people who took out untraditional loans whose interest rate has risen, requiring owners to pay mortgages several hundred dollars more than just a year ago.
"You're looking at more and more distress - consumers desperately trying to preserve their credit lines, but there's nowhere else to go," said Robert Manning, director of the Center for Consumer Financial Services at Rochester Institute of Technology. "It's like a game of dominoes."
Erik Clark
Borowitz, Lozano & Clark, LLP
100 N. Barranca Avenue, Suite 250
West Covina, CA 91791
Office: (626) 332-8600
Fax: (626) 332-8644
Privileged/Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message (or responsible for delivery of the message to such person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email. Please advise immediately if you or your employer does not consent to Internet email for messages of this kind. Opinions, conclusions and other information in this message that do not relate to the official business of my firm shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it.
IRS Circular 230 Disclosure: To ensure compliance with Treasury Department Regulations, we advise you that, unless otherwise expressly indicated, any federal tax advice contained in this communication was
not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding tax-related penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or applicable state or local tax law provisions or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any tax-related matter addressed herein.
________________________________

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Anyway we can informally record our MCLE programs for those who miss them?
Not even for credit, just for the information.
On Dec 23, 2007 7:34 PM, Law Offices of Louis J. Esbin wrote:
> Erik,
>
> This seems like an issue that the cdcbaa may be able to take a
> position on to present to the membership, the United States trustee,
> trustees, as well as judges. We will have several opportunities over
> the next few months to do so at several of the MCLE programs that are
> planned.
>
> Best regards to you, and all members... Merry Christmas and Happy New
> Year.
>
>
> --- In cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com , "Erik Clark"
> wrote:
> >
> > Whatever the resolution, as long as the Tees are on board with us
> not listing it I would be fine to leave it off. I just want to avoid
> a slew of continued hearings due to this issue.
> >
> > Erik Clark
> > Borowitz, Lozano & Clark, LLP
> > 100 N. Barranca Avenue, Suite 250
> > West Covina, CA 91791
> > Office: (626) 332-8600
> > Fax: (626) 332-8644
> >
>
>
>
NEW ADDRESS!
Amy E. C. Kleinpeter
Law Offices of Amy E. Clark Kleinpeter
1489 E. Colorado Boulevard #206
Pasadena, CA 91106
www.amykleinpeter.com
I am required to disclose that The Law Offices of Amy E. Clark Kleinpeter is
a
Debt Relief Agency as defined by the United States Bankruptcy Act of 2005.
I
am a lawyer who proudly represents debtors in bankruptcy cases.
Anyway we can informally record our MCLE programs for those who miss them? Not even for credit, just for the information.-- Amy KleinpeterOn Dec 23, 2007 7:34 PM, Law Offices of Louis J. Esbin <
Esbinlaw@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Erik,
This seems like an issue that the cdcbaa may be able to take a
position on to present to the membership, the United States trustee,
trustees, as well as judges. We will have several opportunities over
the next few months to do so at several of the MCLE programs that are
planned.
Best regards to you, and all members... Merry Christmas and Happy New
Year.
>
> Whatever the resolution, as long as the Tees are on board with us
not listing it I would be fine to leave it off. I just want to avoid
a slew of continued hearings due to this issue.
>
> Erik Clark
> Borowitz, Lozano & Clark, LLP
> 100 N. Barranca Avenue, Suite 250
> West Covina, CA 91791
> Office: (626) 332-8600
> Fax: (626) 332-8644
>
-- NEW ADDRESS!Amy E. C. KleinpeterLaw Offices of Amy E. Clark Kleinpeter1489 E. Colorado Boulevard #206Pasadena, CA 91106
www.amykleinpeter.comI am required to disclose that The Law Offices of Amy E. Clark Kleinpeter is aDebt Relief Agency as defined by the United States Bankruptcy Act of 2005. Iam a lawyer who proudly represents debtors in bankruptcy cases.

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Erik,
This seems like an issue that the cdcbaa may be able to take a
position on to present to the membership, the United States trustee,
trustees, as well as judges. We will have several opportunities over
the next few months to do so at several of the MCLE programs that are
planned.
Best regards to you, and all members... Merry Christmas and Happy New
Year.
>
> Whatever the resolution, as long as the Tees are on board with us
not listing it I would be fine to leave it off. I just want to avoid
a slew of continued hearings due to this issue.
>
> Erik Clark
> Borowitz, Lozano & Clark, LLP
> 100 N. Barranca Avenue, Suite 250
> West Covina, CA 91791
> Office: (626) 332-8600
> Fax: (626) 332-8644
>

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

X-eGroups-Edited-By: easky1
Whatever the resolution, as long as the Tees are on board with us not listing it I would be fine to leave it off. I just want to avoid a slew of continued hearings due to this issue.

Erik Clark
Borowitz, Lozano & Clark, LLP
100 N. Barranca Avenue, Suite 250
West Covina, CA 91791
Office: (626) 332-8600
Fax: (626) 332-8644
name="winmail.dat"

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

I believe California real property law controls in this situation.
And, California is an anti-deficiency state, whereas most others are
not. What would happen if a debt secured by a California residence
was not listed on the Statement of Intentions? Is it being suggested
that a lender can commence foreclosure? I'll take that case on! In
the alternative, what if the debt is listed on the Statement of
Intention, is it equally arguable that a lender can be forced under
the Bankruptcy Code to obtain an order that would deem the debt the
personal liability of the debtor; in other words, there would be a
personal judgment of reaffirmation? That's would be the security
first rule. I'll take that one too!
These issues were first raised in the Claims MCLE we did last year.
In February, we are going to have an MCLE on California mortgage and
deed of trust practice under BAPCPA. Judge Bufford may be one
panelist, I am another, and I am trying to get Chuck Hansen, who wrote
the California Mortgage & Deed of Trust Practice Guide to come down
from Oakland, where he practices. He and I are close friends, and we
could not get a better authority. He is also professor of real
property at Boalt Hall.
Any thoughts?
>
> You're right. Section 521 used to say "consumer". I just looked at my
> black line edition & the work consumer is crossed out.
>
>
>
> Nonetheless, I typically just list all secured consumer debt in the Stmt
> of Intentions.
>
>
>
> Also, unless I'm mistaken, 521(a)(2) is not limited to personal property
> (even pre-BAPCPA).
>
>
>
> Raj T. Wadhwani
>
> Wadhwani Law Firm, APLC
>
> 15233 Ventura Blvd., Suite 1120
>
> Sherman Oaks, CA 91403
>
> Phone: (818) 784-0500
>
> Fax: (818) 784-0508
>
> raj@...
>
> ________________________________
>
> Of Mark JM
> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:44 AM
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] listing debts secured by RP on Stmt. of Intention
>
>
>
> Where in 521(a)(2) (or elsewhere) does it limit this to consumer debts?
>
>
>
> ______________________
> Mark J. Markus
> Law Office of Mark J. Markus
> 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
> Studio City, CA 91604-2652
> (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
> web: http://www.bklaw.com/
> This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
> ___________
> NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office
> of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended
> for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note
> that any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this
> message is prohibited.
> IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed
> by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this
> communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be
> used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties
> under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or
> recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in
> this communication (or in any attachment).
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
>
> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:15 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] listing debts secured by RP on Stmt. of
> Intention
>
>
>
> I do not list them because they are not "consumer debts secured
> by personal property of the estate" if non-residential real property.
> If residential real property then CA anti-deficiency statute renders
> listing purchase money loan meaningless. For non-purchase money loan
> (equity or refinance loan) secured by residence debtor is not required
> to reaffirm the debt. However, I do indicate on Schedule A and D the
> debtor's intent to surrender the property to the creditor or to retain.
>
> Peter
>
> Mark JM wrote:
>
> This is more a matter of form over substance, but do any
> of you list debts secured by real property on the statement of
> intentions form? I think technically we're supposed to, although in
> practice I suspect few of us do because none of the stated options
> really applies--in California anyway.
>
>
>
> ______________________
> Mark J. Markus
> Law Office of Mark J. Markus
> 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
> Studio City, CA 91604-2652
> (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
> web: http://www.bklaw.com/
> This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
> ___________
> NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information
> from the law office of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The
> information is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are
> not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy, distribution or use
> of the contents of this message is prohibited.
> IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with
> requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice
> contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended
> or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i)
> avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting,
> marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter
> addressed in this communication (or in any attachment).
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
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I was reading the Statement of Intentions form.
Mark JM wrote:
Where in 521(a)(2) (or elsewhere) does it limit this to consumer debts?

______________________
Mark J. Markus
Law Office of Mark J. Markus
11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
Studio City, CA 91604-2652
(818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
web: http://www.bklaw.com/
This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
___________
NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication (or in any attachment).
----- Original Message -----
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] listing debts secured by RP on Stmt. of Intention
I do not list them because they are not "consumer debts secured by personal property of the estate" if non-residential real property. If residential real property then CA anti-deficiency statute renders listing purchase money loan meaningless. For non-purchase money loan (equity or refinance loan) secured by residence debtor is not required to reaffirm the debt. However, I do indicate on Schedule A and D the debtor's intent to surrender the property to the creditor or to retain.
Peter
Mark JM wrote:
This is more a matter of form over substance, but do any of you list debts secured by real property on the statement of intentions form? I think technically we're supposed to, although in practice I suspect few of us do because none of the stated options really applies--in California anyway.

______________________
Mark J. Markus
Law Office of Mark J. Markus
11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
Studio City, CA 91604-2652
(818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
web: http://www.bklaw.com/
This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
___________
NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of Mark J. Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy, distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in this communication (or in any attachment).
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BAPCPA deleted the word "consumer" from 521(a)(2), and both 521(a)(2) and the Statement of Intentions form require listing of "debts secured by property of the estate", not just debts secured by personal property.
James R. Selth
Weintraub & Selth, APC
12424 Wilshire Blvd., Suite 1120
Los Angeles, CA 90025
Telephone: (310) 207-1494
Facsimile: (310) 442-0660
E-Mail: jim@wsrlaw.net
NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: THIS E-MAIL IS MEANT FOR ONLY THE INTENDED RECIPIENT OF
THE TRANSMISSION, AND THIS COMMUNICATION IS INTENDED TO BE PRIVILEGED BY
LAW. IF YOU RECEIVED THIS E-MAIL IN ERROR, ANY REVIEW, USE, DISSEMINATION,
DISTRIBUTION, OR COPYING OF THIS E-MAIL IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. PLEASE NOTIFY
US IMMEDIATELY OF THE ERROR BY RETURN E-MAIL AND PLEASE DELETE THIS
MESSAGE FROM YOUR SYSTEM. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
To:
Sent: 12/21/2007 9:44AM
Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] listing debts secured by RP on Stmt. of Intention
>> Where in 521(a)(2) (or elsewhere) does it limit this to consumer debts?
>>
>> ______________________
>> Mark J. Markus
>> Law Office of Mark J. Markus
>> 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
>> Studio City, CA 91604-2652
>> (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
>> web: http://www.bklaw.com/
>> This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
>> ___________
>> NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of Mark J.
>> Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use of the
>> addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy,
>> distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
>> IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by
>> the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in
>> any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the
>> purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting,
>> marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in
>> this communication (or in any attachment).
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:15 AM
>> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] listing debts secured by RP on Stmt. of Intention
>>
>>
>> I do not list them because they are not "consumer debts secured by personal
>> property of the estate" if non-residential real property. If residential real property then
>> CA anti-deficiency statute renders listing purchase money loan meaningless. For
>> non-purchase money loan (equity or refinance loan) secured by residence debtor is
>> not required to reaffirm the debt. However, I do indicate on Schedule A and D the
>> debtor's intent to surrender the property to the creditor or to retain.
>> Peter
>>
>> Mark JM wrote:
>> This is more a matter of form over substance, but do any of you list debts secured
>> by real property on the statement of intentions form? I think technically we're
>> supposed to, although in practice I suspect few of us do because none of the stated
>> options really applies--in California anyway.
>>
>> ______________________
>> Mark J. Markus
>> Law Office of Mark J. Markus
>> 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
>> Studio City, CA 91604-2652
>> (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
>> web: http://www.bklaw.com/
>> This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
>> ___________
>> NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of Mark J.
>> Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use of the
>> addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy,
>> distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
>> IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by
>> the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in
>> any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the
>> purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting,
>> marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in
>> this communication (or in any attachment).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Be a better friend, newshoun
BAPCPA deleted the word "consumer" from 521(a)(2), and both 521(a)(2) and the Statement of Intentions form require listing of "debts secured by property of the estate", not just debts secured by personal property.
James R. Selth
Weintraub & Selth, APC
12424 Wilshire Blvd., Suite 1120
Los Angeles, CA 90025
Telephone: (310) 207-1494
Facsimile: (310) 442-0660
E-Mail: jim@wsrlaw.net

NOTICE TO RECIPIENT: THIS E-MAIL IS MEANT FOR ONLY THE INTENDED RECIPIENT OF
THE TRANSMISSION, AND THIS COMMUNICATION IS INTENDED TO BE PRIVILEGED BY
LAW. IF YOU RECEIVED THIS E-MAIL IN ERROR, ANY REVIEW, USE, DISSEMINATION,
DISTRIBUTION, OR COPYING OF THIS E-MAIL IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. PLEASE NOTIFY
US IMMEDIATELY OF THE ERROR BY RETURN E-MAIL AND PLEASE DELETE THIS
MESSAGE FROM YOUR SYSTEM. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR COOPERATION.


--- Original Message---
To:
Sent: 12/21/2007 9:44AM
Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] listing debts secured by RP on Stmt. of Intention

>> Where in 521(a)(2) (or elsewhere) does it limit this to consumer debts?
>>
>> ______________________
>> Mark J. Markus
>> Law Office of Mark J. Markus
>> 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
>> Studio City, CA 91604-2652
>> (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
>> web: http://www.bklaw.com/
>> This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
>> ___________
>> NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of Mark J.
>> Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use of the
>> addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy,
>> distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
>> IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by
>> the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in
>> any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the
>> purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting,
>> marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in
>> this communication (or in any attachment).
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:15 AM
>> Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] listing debts secured by RP on Stmt. of Intention
>>
>>
>> I do not list them because they are not "consumer debts secured by personal
>> property of the estate" if non-residential real property. If residential real property then
>> CA anti-deficiency statute renders listing purchase money loan meaningless. For
>> non-purchase money loan (equity or refinance loan) secured by residence debtor is
>> not required to reaffirm the debt. However, I do indicate on Schedule A and D the
>> debtor's intent to surrender the property to the creditor or to retain.
>> Peter
>>
>> Mark JM wrote:
>> This is more a matter of form over substance, but do any of you list debts secured
>> by real property on the statement of intentions form? I think technically we're
>> supposed to, although in practice I suspect few of us do because none of the stated
>> options really applies--in California anyway.
>>
>> ______________________
>> Mark J. Markus
>> Law Office of Mark J Markus
>> 11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
>> Studio City, CA 91604-2652
>> (818)509-1173 (818)509-1460 (fax)
>> web: http://www.bklaw.com/
>> This Firm is a Qualified Federal Debt Relief Agency
>> ___________
>> NOTICE: This Electronic Message contains information from the law office of Mark J.
>> Markus that may be privileged. The information is intended for the use of the
>> addressee only. If you are not the addressee, note that any disclosure, copy,
>> distribution or use of the contents of this message is prohibited.
>> IRS CIRCULAR 230 NOTICE: To ensure compliance with requirements imposed by
>> the IRS, we inform you that any U.S. tax advice contained in this communication (or in
>> any attachment) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the
>> purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting,
>> marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed in
>> this communication (or in any attachment).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------->> Be a better friend, newshoun

The post was migrated from Yahoo.