Central District Consumer Bankruptcy Attorney's Association

Yes, the theory is the same, but cars are more expensive, and Ford is
more likely to sue for, essentially, willful and malicious conduct.
Get the repair estimate, the location, etc., and make sure the
informatin gets to Ford.
D
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 25, 2010, at 9:00 PM, Stephen Mark wrote:
> Does the same lien theory apply if the client drives his vehicle
> deep into Mexico, where the engine blows up. Rather than pay the
> $1000 deductible for his Mexican insurance to repair it, or
> transport it back to California, client would prefer to surrender
> the vehicle and have Ford retrieve it. Does the lien follow the
> property and client gets to walk away???
>
> Stephen Stern
>
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, July 25, 2010 11:46:24 AM
> Subject: [cdcbaa] Re: So what happens if the Client no longer has
> the furniture they bought at Dearden's in a chapter 7
>
>
> The lien remains attached and the right to repossess remains even if
> you threw the stuff in the ocean. Even if you burned it up, the lien
> would attach to the ashes. Your "intention" is to not keep it. They
> can go get it where ever it is. As for non-dischargeability? They
> could go after the debtor for (a)(6) but the creditor must show the
> debtor intended to harm the creditor's stuff - read Geiger. Dennis
> is right, I tell them to stick it. Obviously if there is some formal
> request for info, you must comply. You cannot list a debt as secured
> unless you show an asset on Sched B I'm pretty sure. So put the debt
> on F and note that you don't have the stuff anymore and they are
> welcome to go get it. Hot as hell in Phoenix. I'm afraid to go
> outside. Jon
>
> --- In cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com, Dennis wrote:
> >
> > Just tell the store they gave the garbage away. Haven't seen a
> contract that says consumers have to maintain possession of this
> kind of junk. Creditor is unsecured and no reaff. If they insist on
> the address of party to whom the junk wass given, supply the
> address. For 2k, not likely the junk dealer will sue the transferee.
> >
> > D
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Jul 22, 2010, at 6:07 PM, R Grace Rodriguez
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Members:
> >
> > Client had loan with Dearden's purchasing a bedroom set with
> mattress & Box Spring. Notably the Mattress and Box Spring has no
> resale value because those item's can't be resold by retainer.
> However, with respect to the the four other pieces of furniture,
> those items were taken by a relative who was foreclosed on and had
> to move to a new place. She lost everything when tenants robbed her.
> So feeling sorry for the family member, they gave her the furniture
> because it was cheap and falling apart. So now when they filed
> chapter 7 bankruptcy, Dearden's is asking to reaffirm or give back
> property. I don't recommend reaffirm obviously, and they don't have
> it to give back. I realize that they could pay fair market for the
> furniture. But Dearden's is asking for $1,700 on a debt that was
> $2,100.00. Clients don't want to pay. Now what?
> >
> > --
> > R. Grace Rodriguez, Esq.
> > OFF: (818) 734-7223
> > CEL: (323) 304-5496
> >
> > NO EX-PARTE NOTICE VIA VOICE MAIL OR EMAIL: I do not accept e-mail
> notice for ex parte Applications via voicemail or by email. You must
> comply with California Law and give notice to a person in my office
> during regular business hours.
> >
> > CONFIDENTIALITY STATEMENT: This message contains privileged and
> confidential information and is intended only for the individual
> named. If you are not the intended recipient you should not
> disseminate, distribute, store, print, copy or deliver this message.
> Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received
> this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system.
> >
>
>
>
Yes, the theory is the same, but cars are more expensive, and Ford is more likely to sue for, essentially, willful and malicious conduct. Get the repair estimate, the location, etc., and make sure the informatin gets to Ford.DSent from my iPhoneOn Jul 25, 2010, at 9:00 PM, Stephen Mark <legalsos4u@yahoo.com> wrote:

Does the same lien theory apply if the client drives his vehicle deep into Mexico, where the engine blows up. Rather than pay the $1000 deductible for his Mexican insurance to repair it, or transport it back to California, client would prefer to surrender the vehicle and have Ford retrieve it. Does the lien follow the property and client gets to walk away???Stephen SternFrom: jonhayes6666 <Jhayes@polarisnet.net>To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.comSent: Sun, July 25, 2010 11:46:24 AM
The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Liens don't follow things. A lien attaches to property - it is an ownership interest in an item described in the agreement. That's why liens don't go away in bankruptcy. Congress can't take a bank's property w/o compensation. The debtor's conduct is separate. The debt is discharged unless 523(a) says it isn't discharged. Look at Geiger for an explanation of what is non-dischargeable willful and malicious injury to person or property. In your example, I think you have to list the vehicle on sch B and the debt on sched D and "return" on the stmt of intentions. "Return" doesn't literally mean physically bring the item back to the creditor. There is certainly no willful injury to property that I see.
>
> Does the same lien theory apply if the client drives his vehicle deep into
> Mexico, where the engine blows up. Rather than pay the $1000 deductible for his
> Mexican insurance to repair it, or transport it back to California, client would
> prefer to surrender the vehicle and have Ford retrieve it. Does the lien follow
> the property and client gets to walk away???
>
> Stephen Stern
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sun, July 25, 2010 11:46:24 AM
> Subject: [cdcbaa] Re: So what happens if the Client no longer has the furniture
> they bought at Dearden's in a chapter 7
>
>
> The lien remains attached and the right to repossess remains even if you threw
> the stuff in the ocean. Even if you burned it up, the lien would attach to the
> ashes. Your "intention" is to not keep it. They can go get it where ever it
> is. As for non-dischargeability? They could go after the debtor for (a)(6) but
> the creditor must show the debtor intended to harm the creditor's stuff - read
> Geiger. Dennis is right, I tell them to stick it. Obviously if there is some
> formal request for info, you must comply. You cannot list a debt as secured
> unless you show an asset on Sched B I'm pretty sure. So put the debt on F and
> note that you don't have the stuff anymore and they are welcome to go get it.
> Hot as hell in Phoenix. I'm afraid to go outside. Jon
>
>
> --- In cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com, Dennis wrote:
> >
> > Just tell the store they gave the garbage away. Haven't seen a contract that
> >says consumers have to maintain possession of this kind of junk. Creditor is
> >unsecured and no reaff. If they insist on the address of party to whom the junk
> >wass given, supply the address. For 2k, not likely the junk dealer will sue the
> >transferee.
> >
> > D
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Jul 22, 2010, at 6:07 PM, R Grace Rodriguez wrote:
> >
> > Dear Members:
> >
> > Client had loan with Dearden's purchasing a bedroom set with mattress & Box
> >Spring. Notably the Mattress and Box Spring has no resale value because those
> >item's can't be resold by retainer. However, with respect to the the four other
> >pieces of furniture, those items were taken by a relative who was foreclosed on
> >and had to move to a new place. She lost everything when tenants robbed her.
> >So feeling sorry for the family member, they gave her the furniture because it
> >was cheap and falling apart. So now when they filed chapter 7 bankruptcy,
> >Dearden's is asking to reaffirm or give back property. I don't recommend
> >reaffirm obviously, and they don't have it to give back. I realize that they
> >could pay fair market for the furniture. But Dearden's is asking for $1,700 on
> >a debt that was $2,100.00. Clients don't want to pay. Now what?
> >
> > --
> > R. Grace Rodriguez, Esq.
> > OFF: (818) 734-7223
> > CEL: (323) 304-5496
> >
> > NO EX-PARTE NOTICE VIA VOICE MAIL OR EMAIL: I do not accept e-mail notice for
> >ex parte Applications via voicemail or by email. You must comply with California
> >Law and give notice to a person in my office during regular business hours.
> >
> > CONFIDENTIALITY STATEMENT: This message contains privileged and confidential
> >information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the
> >intended recipient you should not disseminate, distribute, store, print, copy or
> >deliver this message. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have
> >received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system.
> >
>

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

The lien remains attached and the right to repossess remains even if you threw the stuff in the ocean. Even if you burned it up, the lien would attach to the ashes. Your "intention" is to not keep it. They can go get it where ever it is. As for non-dischargeability? They could go after the debtor for (a)(6) but the creditor must show the debtor intended to harm the creditor's stuff - read Geiger. Dennis is right, I tell them to stick it. Obviously if there is some formal request for info, you must comply. You cannot list a debt as secured unless you show an asset on Sched B I'm pretty sure. So put the debt on F and note that you don't have the stuff anymore and they are welcome to go get it. Hot as hell in Phoenix. I'm afraid to go outside. Jon
>
> Just tell the store they gave the garbage away. Haven't seen a contract that says consumers have to maintain possession of this kind of junk. Creditor is unsecured and no reaff. If they insist on the address of party to whom the junk wass given, supply the address. For 2k, not likely the junk dealer will sue the transferee.
>
> D
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 22, 2010, at 6:07 PM, R Grace Rodriguez wrote:
>
> Dear Members:
>
> Client had loan with Dearden's purchasing a bedroom set with mattress & Box Spring. Notably the Mattress and Box Spring has no resale value because those item's can't be resold by retainer. However, with respect to the the four other pieces of furniture, those items were taken by a relative who was foreclosed on and had to move to a new place. She lost everything when tenants robbed her. So feeling sorry for the family member, they gave her the furniture because it was cheap and falling apart. So now when they filed chapter 7 bankruptcy, Dearden's is asking to reaffirm or give back property. I don't recommend reaffirm obviously, and they don't have it to give back. I realize that they could pay fair market for the furniture. But Dearden's is asking for $1,700 on a debt that was $2,100.00. Clients don't want to pay. Now what?
>
> --
> R. Grace Rodriguez, Esq.
> OFF: (818) 734-7223
> CEL: (323) 304-5496
>
> NO EX-PARTE NOTICE VIA VOICE MAIL OR EMAIL: I do not accept e-mail notice for ex parte Applications via voicemail or by email. You must comply with California Law and give notice to a person in my office during regular business hours.
>
> CONFIDENTIALITY STATEMENT: This message contains privileged and confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the intended recipient you should not disseminate, distribute, store, print, copy or deliver this message. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system.
>

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Re bed, tell them to pick it up. They likely won't waste the man hours. Of course, if they do, client sleeps on floor, clients decision.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 22, 2010, at 6:07 PM, R Grace Rodriguez wrote:
Dear Members:
Client had loan with Dearden's purchasing a bedroom set with mattress & Box Spring. Notably the Mattress and Box Spring has no resale value because those item's can't be resold by retainer. However, with respect to the the four other pieces of furniture, those items were taken by a relative who was foreclosed on and had to move to a new place. She lost everything when tenants robbed her. So feeling sorry for the family member, they gave her the furniture because it was cheap and falling apart. So now when they filed chapter 7 bankruptcy, Dearden's is asking to reaffirm or give back property. I don't recommend reaffirm obviously, and they don't have it to give back. I realize that they could pay fair market for the furniture. But Dearden's is asking for $1,700 on a debt that was $2,100.00. Clients don't want to pay. Now what?
R. Grace Rodriguez, Esq.
OFF: (818) 734-7223
CEL: (323) 304-5496
NO EX-PARTE NOTICE VIA VOICE MAIL OR EMAIL: I do not accept e-mail notice for ex parte Applications via voicemail or by email. You must comply with California Law and give notice to a person in my office during regular business hours.
CONFIDENTIALITY STATEMENT: This message contains privileged and confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the intended recipient you should not disseminate, distribute, store, print, copy or deliver this message. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system.
Re bed, tell them to pick it up. They likely won't waste the man hours. Of course, if they do, client sleeps on floor, clients decision.Sent from my iPhoneOn Jul 22, 2010, at 6:07 PM, R Grace Rodriguez <rgracelaw@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Members:Client had loan with Dearden's purchasing a bedroom set with mattress & Box Spring. Notably the Mattress and Box Spring has no resale value because those item's can't be resold by retainer. However, with respect to the the four other pieces of furniture, those items were taken by a relative who was foreclosed on and had to move to a new place. She lost everything when tenants robbed her. So feeling sorry for the family member, they gave her the furniture because it was cheap and falling apart. So now when they filed chapter 7 bankruptcy, Dearden's is asking to reaffirm or give back property. I don't recommend reaffirm obviously, and they don't have it to give back. I realize that they could pay fair market for the furniture. But Dearden's is asking for $1,700 on a debt that was $2,100.00. Clients don't want to pay. Now what?
-- R. Grace Rodriguez, Esq.OFF: (818) 734-7223CEL: (323) 304-5496NO EX-PARTE NOTICE VIA VOICE MAIL OR EMAIL: I do not accept e-mail notice for ex parte Applications via voicemail or by email. You must comply with California Law and give notice to a person in my office during regular business hours.
CONFIDENTIALITY STATEMENT: This message contains privileged and confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the intended recipient you should not disseminate, distribute, store, print, copy or deliver this message. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system.

The post was migrated from Yahoo.

Just tell the store they gave the garbage away. Haven't seen a contract that says consumers have to maintain possession of this kind of junk. Creditor is unsecured and no reaff. If they insist on the address of party to whom the junk wass given, supply the address. For 2k, not likely the junk dealer will sue the transferee.
D
Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 22, 2010, at 6:07 PM, R Grace Rodriguez wrote:
Dear Members:
Client had loan with Dearden's purchasing a bedroom set with mattress & Box Spring. Notably the Mattress and Box Spring has no resale value because those item's can't be resold by retainer. However, with respect to the the four other pieces of furniture, those items were taken by a relative who was foreclosed on and had to move to a new place. She lost everything when tenants robbed her. So feeling sorry for the family member, they gave her the furniture because it was cheap and falling apart. So now when they filed chapter 7 bankruptcy, Dearden's is asking to reaffirm or give back property. I don't recommend reaffirm obviously, and they don't have it to give back. I realize that they could pay fair market for the furniture. But Dearden's is asking for $1,700 on a debt that was $2,100.00. Clients don't want to pay. Now what?
R. Grace Rodriguez, Esq.
OFF: (818) 734-7223
CEL: (323) 304-5496
NO EX-PARTE NOTICE VIA VOICE MAIL OR EMAIL: I do not accept e-mail notice for ex parte Applications via voicemail or by email. You must comply with California Law and give notice to a person in my office during regular business hours.
CONFIDENTIALITY STATEMENT: This message contains privileged and confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the intended recipient you should not disseminate, distribute, store, print, copy or deliver this message. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system.
Just tell the store they gave the garbage away. Haven't seen a contract that says consumers have to maintain possession of this kind of junk. Creditor is unsecured and no reaff. If they insist on the address of party to whom the junk wass given, supply the address. For 2k, not likely the junk dealer will sue the transferee.D Sent from my iPhoneOn Jul 22, 2010, at 6:07 PM, R Grace Rodriguez <rgracelaw@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Members:Client had loan with Dearden's purchasing a bedroom set with mattress & Box Spring. Notably the Mattress and Box Spring has no resale value because those item's can't be resold by retainer. However, with respect to the the four other pieces of furniture, those items were taken by a relative who was foreclosed on and had to move to a new place. She lost everything when tenants robbed her. So feeling sorry for the family member, they gave her the furniture because it was cheap and falling apart. So now when they filed chapter 7 bankruptcy, Dearden's is asking to reaffirm or give back property. I don't recommend reaffirm obviously, and they don't have it to give back. I realize that they could pay fair market for the furniture. But Dearden's is asking for $1,700 on a debt that was $2,100.00. Clients don't want to pay. Now what?
-- R. Grace Rodriguez, Esq.OFF: (818) 734-7223CEL: (323) 304-5496NO EX-PARTE NOTICE VIA VOICE MAIL OR EMAIL: I do not accept e-mail notice for ex parte Applications via voicemail or by email. You must comply with California Law and give notice to a person in my office during regular business hours.
CONFIDENTIALITY STATEMENT: This message contains privileged and confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the intended recipient you should not disseminate, distribute, store, print, copy or deliver this message. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system.

The post was migrated from Yahoo.