.jpg)
109(e) calculations....never mind
>
> Excellent suggestion. I had been analyzing that as
> well. Of course, the IRS could reduce the lien to
> judgment prior to then, but I am told they rarely do
> that.
>
>
This is a seldom used remendy by the irs, but in this
case, Reducing the lien to judgment would violate the
discharge injunction. Being illegal, it won't happen.
dennis
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Excellent suggestion. I had been analyzing that as well. Of course, the IRS could reduce the lien to judgment prior to then, but I am told they rarely do that.
***********************************************
Mark J. Markus
Law Office of Mark J. Markus
11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
Studio City, CA 91604-2652
(818)509-1173
(818)509-1460 (fax)
e-mail: bklawr@bklaw.com
web: http://www.bklaw.com/
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----- Original Message -----
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 7:28 AM
Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] 109(e) calculations....never mind
--- "Mark J. Markus" wrote:
> Message
> So debtor is screwed then? Even if we discharge the
> taxes, the IRS can seize the pension proceeds upon
> retirement?
>
>
>
Tell Doc not to retire for 10 years. The lien expires
10 years after it is filed and since the tax
obligation will have been discharged (your facts), the
lien cannot be refiled.
This is the only way I know to protect liened
retierement, just wait out the lien before you retire.
dennis
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Excellent suggestion. I had been analyzing
that as well. Of course, the IRS could reduce the lien to judgment prior tothen, but I am told they rarely do that.
***********************************************Mark J. MarkusLaw
Office of Mark J. Markus11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403Studio City, CA91604-2652(818)509-1173(818)509-1460 (fax)e-mail: bklawr@bklaw.comweb:
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
> Message
> So debtor is screwed then? Even if we discharge the
> taxes, the IRS can seize the pension proceeds upon
> retirement?
>
>
>
Tell Doc not to retire for 10 years. The lien expires
10 years after it is filed and since the tax
obligation will have been discharged (your facts), the
lien cannot be refiled.
This is the only way I know to protect liened
retierement, just wait out the lien before you retire.
dennis
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Message
So debtor is screwed then? Even if we discharge the taxes, the IRS can seize the pension proceeds upon retirement?
----- Original Message -----
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 1:49 PM
Subject: RE: [cdcbaa] 109(e) calculations....never mind
Lien never leaves the pension plan - no need to "re-attach"
David A. Tilem
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 11:45 AM
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [cdcbaa] 109(e) calculations....never mind
Yes it is dischargeable (well, most of it). However, I found another recent case that states that the IRS lien against ERISA qualified pension plans does NOT qualify it as a secured creditor by virtue of the pension plan, because the pension plan is not property of the estate. IRS vs. Snyder, 343 F.3d 1171 (9th Cir. 2003). Query, however, whether that also means that post-discharge the IRS lien does not re-attach to that pension plan!?
***********************************************
Mark J. Markus
----- Original Message -----
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 11:30 AM
Subject: RE: [cdcbaa] 109(e) calculations....never mind
Technically: Present value the anticipated stream of payments using a discount rate determined by an economist.
Practically: Seat of the pants in negotiations with the IRS
Is the tax debt dischargeable?
David A. Tilem
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 10:22 AM
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Cc: David Hagen
Subject: [cdcbaa] 109(e) calculations....never mind
I just found the more recent case that my mind TOLD me I had seen before that overrulled the Edmonston case...it's In re Soderlund, 236 BR 271 (9th Cir. BAP 1999) which expressly provides that the undersecured portion of a claim IS included in the unsecured debt limit calculations.
My remaining question is: How does one calculate or use the ERISA qualified pension asset when figuring all this out? Presumably the IRS is secured by that asset, but what is its value?
***********************************************
Mark J. Markus
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Message
So debtor is screwed then? Even if we
discharge the taxes, the IRS can seize the pension proceeds upon
retirement?
----- Original Message -----
From:
David
A. Tilem
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 1:49
PM
Subject: RE: [cdcbaa] 109(e)
calculations....never mind
Lien never leaves
the pension plan - no need to "re-attach"
David
A. Tilem
-----Original Message-----From: Mark J. Markus
[mailto:bklawr@bklaw.com] Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 11:45
AMTo:
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Message
Yes it is dischargeable (well, most of it). However, I found another recent case that states that the IRS lien against ERISA qualified pension plans does NOT qualify it as a secured creditor by virtue of the pension plan, because the pension plan is not property of the estate. IRS vs. Snyder, 343 F.3d 1171 (9th Cir. 2003). Query, however, whether that also means that post-discharge the IRS lien does not re-attach to that pension plan!?
***********************************************
Mark J. Markus
Law Office of Mark J. Markus
11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
Studio City, CA 91604-2652
(818)509-1173
(818)509-1460 (fax)
e-mail: bklawr@bklaw.com
web: http://www.bklaw.com/
************************************************
Confidentiality Note: This e-mail is intended only for the person or
entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged,
confidential, or otherwise protected from disclosure. Dissemination,
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----- Original Message -----
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 11:30 AM
Subject: RE: [cdcbaa] 109(e) calculations....never mind
Technically: Present value the anticipated stream of payments using a discount rate determined by an economist.
Practically: Seat of the pants in negotiations with the IRS
Is the tax debt dischargeable?
David A. Tilem
Certified Bankruptcy Specialist*
Law Offices of David A. Tilem
500 N. Brand Blvd., #460, Glendale, CA 91203
Tel: 818-507-6000 Fax: 818-507-6800
* Personal & small business bankruptcy specialist cert. by State Bar of CA Bd of Legal Specialization.
Business bankruptcy specialist cert. by Amer. Bd. of Certification
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 10:22 AM
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Cc: David Hagen
Subject: [cdcbaa] 109(e) calculations....never mind
I just found the more recent case that my mind TOLD me I had seen before that overrulled the Edmonston case...it's In re Soderlund, 236 BR 271 (9th Cir. BAP 1999) which expressly provides that the undersecured portion of a claim IS included in the unsecured debt limit calculations.
My remaining question is: How does one calculate or use the ERISA qualified pension asset when figuring all this out? Presumably the IRS is secured by that asset, but what is its value?
***********************************************
Mark J. Markus
Law Office of Mark J. Markus
11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
Studio City, CA 91604-2652
(818)509-1173
(818)509-1460 (fax)
e-mail: bklawr@bklaw.com
web: http://www.bklaw.com/
************************************************
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Message
Yes it is dischargeable (well, most of it).
However, I found another recent case that states that the IRS lien
against ERISA qualified pension plans does NOT qualify it as a securedcreditor by virtue of the pension plan, because the pension plan is not property
of the estate. IRS vs. Snyder, 343 F.3d 1171 (9th Cir. 2003).
Query, however, whether that also means that post-discharge the IRS lien does
not re-attach to that pension plan!?
***********************************************Mark J. MarkusLaw
Office of Mark J. Markus11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403Studio City, CA91604-2652(818)509-1173(818)509-1460 (fax)e-mail: bklawr@bklaw.comweb:
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
I just found the more recent case that my mind TOLD me I had seen before that overrulled the Edmonston case...it's In re Soderlund, 236 BR 271 (9th Cir. BAP 1999) which expressly provides that the undersecured portion of a claim IS included in the unsecured debt limit calculations.
My remaining question is: How does one calculate or use the ERISA qualified pension asset when figuring all this out? Presumably the IRS is secured by that asset, but what is its value?
***********************************************
Mark J. Markus
Law Office of Mark J. Markus
11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403
Studio City, CA 91604-2652
(818)509-1173
(818)509-1460 (fax)
e-mail: bklawr@bklaw.com
web: http://www.bklaw.com/
************************************************
Confidentiality Note: This e-mail is intended only for the person or
entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged,
confidential, or otherwise protected from disclosure. Dissemination,
distribution, or copying of this e-mail or the information herein by anyone
other than the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for
delivering the message to the intended recipient, is prohibited. If you
have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately at (818)
509-1173 or e-mail us at bklawr@bklaw.com and destroy the
original message and all copies.
I just found the more recent case that my mind TOLD
me I had seen before that overrulled the Edmonston case...it's In re Soderlund,
236 BR 271 (9th Cir. BAP 1999) which expressly provides that the undersecured
portion of a claim IS included in the unsecured debt limit
calculations.
My remaining question is: How does one
calculate or use the ERISA qualified pension asset when figuring all this
out? Presumably the IRS is secured by that asset, but what is its
value?
***********************************************Mark J. MarkusLaw
Office of Mark J. Markus11684 Ventura Blvd. PMB #403Studio City, CA91604-2652(818)509-1173(818)509-1460 (fax)e-mail: bklawr@bklaw.comweb:
The post was migrated from Yahoo.