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Means Test and Property Taxes/HOA
I agree with Peter. I also compare it to those debtors who have an
impound account with their lenders. It leads to absurd results if
impound account debtors are able to include property taxes and
insurance as part of their trust deed payments on line 42 because they
pay them through the lender and debtors without an impound account be
treated differently because they pay them directly.
I have never been challenged in taking these on line 42.
Mark T. Jessee
Law Offices of Mark T. Jessee
"A Debt Relief Agency"
50 W. Hillcrest Drive, Suite 200
Thousand Oaks, CA 91360
(805) 497-5868
On Wed 27/10/10 11:33 AM , P L petermlively2000@yahoo.com sent:
The 707(b)(2)(A)(iii)(II) standard is "necessary ... to maintain
possession of the debtor's primary residence" I always include both
property taxes and HOA dues since they are logically necessary...
Peter M. Lively, JD/MBA
Law Office of Peter M. Lively * Personal Financial Law Center I
11268 Washington Blvd, Suite 203, Culver City, CA 90230-4647
Telephone: (310)391-2400 * (800)307-3328 * Fax: (310)391-2462
A-Bankruptcy-Attorney.com
Personal Financial Law Center II - Costa Mesa, CA
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FROM: t_mannis
TO: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
SENT: Wed, October 27, 2010 11:15:46 AM
SUBJECT: [cdcbaa] Means Test and Property Taxes/HOA
Generally, what is everyone doing with regard to these in the
context of the Means Test?
I know that the U.S. Trustee's position is that they are part of
Line 20b, which is the general housing allowance, but in the case I am
working on, the taxes are high and their table is so unrealistic as to
be just plain stupid.
Seeing as how I appear for lots of attorneys, I see lots of
petitions, and I notice that on some, they list the property taxes on
Schedule D, as a secured debt (conceivably, the county could
foreclose), and then list the property taxes on Line 42 as well. I
have yet to see a Trustee ever make this an issue.
So, the question is, is their inclusion in Line 20b's fixed
deduction merely the U.S. Trustee's position, whereas Debtor's
position is that one could include it in Line 42, or is it etched in
granite that you're stuck with the Line 20b dedution, period?
Assuming the latter, I am inclined to file it anyway. The
presumption will arise, and I'll have to argue special circumstances.
Obviously I'll inform the client it might not fly, and thats the
risk they'll take with the fee, but honestly, that risk seems better
than charging them $4,000 for a 13 that has virtually no viability
whatsoever.
Todd Mannis, Esq.
Links:
[1] mailto:cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com?subjectRe: [cdcbaa] Means Test and
Property Taxes/HOA
[2]
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
The 707(b)(2)(A)(iii)(II) standard is"necessary ... to maintainpossession of
the debtor's primary residence"
I always include both property taxes and HOA dues since theyare logically
necessary...
Law Office of Peter M. Lively * Personal Financial Law Center I
11268 Washington Blvd, Suite 203, Culver City, CA 90230-4647
Telephone: (310)391-2400 * (800)307-3328 * Fax: (310)391-2462
A-Bankruptcy-Attorney.com
Personal Financial Law Center II - Costa Mesa, CA
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY TO WHICH
IT IS ADDRESSED, AND MAY CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT IS PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL
AND EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE UNDER APPLICABLE LAW. IF THE READER OF THIS MESSAGE
IS NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, OR THE EMPLOYEE OR AGENT RESPONSIBLE FOR
DELIVERING THE MESSAGE TO THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT
ANY DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION OR COPYING OF THIS COMMUNICATION IS STRICTLY
PROHIBITED. IF YOU HAVE RECEIVED THIS COMMUNICATION IN ERROR, PLEASE NOTIFY US
IMMEDIATELY BY E-MAIL OR BY TELEPHONE. THANK YOU.
________________________________
To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, October 27, 2010 11:15:46 AM
Subject: [cdcbaa] Means Test and Property Taxes/HOA
Generally, what is everyone doing with regard to these in the context of the
Means Test?
I know that the U.S. Trustee's position is that they are part of Line 20b, which
is the general housing allowance, but in the case I am working on, the taxes are
high and their table is so unrealistic as to be just plain stupid.
Seeing as how I appear for lots of attorneys, I see lots of petitions, and I
notice that on some, they list the property taxes on Schedule D, as a secured
debt (conceivably, the county could foreclose), and then list the property taxes
on Line 42 as well. I have yet to see a Trustee ever make this an issue.
So, the question is, is their inclusion in Line 20b's fixed deduction merely the
U.S. Trustee's position, whereas Debtor's position is that one could include it
in Line 42, or is it etched in granite that you're stuck with the Line 20bdedution, period?
Assuming the latter, I am inclined to file it anyway. The presumption willarise, and I'll have to argue special circumstances.
Obviously I'll inform the client it might not fly, and thats the risk they'll
take with the fee, but honestly, that risk seems better than charging them$4,000 for a 13 that has virtually no viability whatsoever.
Todd Mannis, Esq.
The 707(b)(2)(A)(iii)(II) standard is "necessary ... to maintain possession of the debtor's primary residence"
I always include both property taxes and HOA dues since they are logically necessary... Peter M. Lively, JD/MBALaw Office of Peter M. Lively * Personal Financial Law Center I11268 Washington Blvd, Suite 203, Culver City, CA 90230-4647Telephone: (310)391-2400 * (800)307-3328 * Fax: (310)391-2462 A-Bankruptcy-Attorney.comPersonal Financial Law Center II - Costa Mesa, CA
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY TO WHICH IT IS ADDRESSED, AND MAY CONTAIN INFORMATION THAT IS PRIVILEGED, CONFIDENTIAL AND EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE UNDER APPLICABLE LAW. IF THE READER OF THIS MESSAGE IS NOT THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, OR THE EMPLOYEE OR AGENT RESPONSIBLE FOR DELIVERING THE MESSAGE TO THE INTENDED RECIPIENT, YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED THAT ANY DISSEMINATION, DISTRIBUTION OR COPYING OF THIS COMMUNICATION IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. IF YOU HAVE RECEIVED THIS COMMUNICATION IN ERROR, PLEASE NOTIFY US IMMEDIATELY BY E-MAIL OR BY TELEPHONE. THANK YOU.
From: t_mannis <toddlaw@dslextreme.com>To: cdcbaa@yahoogroups.comSent: Wed, October 27, 2010 11:15:46 AMSubject: [cdcbaa] Means Test and Property Taxes/HOA
Generally, what is everyone doing with regard to these in the context of the Means Test?I know that the U.S. Trustee's position is that they are part of Line 20b, which is the general housing allowance, but in the case I am working on, the taxes are high and their table is so unrealistic as to be just plain stupid. Seeing as how I appear for lots of attorneys, I see lots of petitions, and I notice that on some, they list the property taxes on Schedule D, as a secured debt (conceivably, the county could foreclose), and then list the property taxes on Line 42 as well. I have yet to see a Trustee ever make this an issue.So, the question is, is their inclusion in Line 20b's fixed deduction merely the U.S. Trustee's position, whereas Debtor's position is that one could include it in Line 42, or is it etched in granite that you're stuck with the Line 20b dedution, period?Assuming the latter, I am inclined to file it anyway.
The presumption will arise, and I'll have to argue special circumstances.Obviously I'll inform the client it might not fly, and thats the risk they'll take with the fee, but honestly, that risk seems better than charging them $4,000 for a 13 that has virtually no viability whatsoever. Todd Mannis, Esq.
The post was migrated from Yahoo.
Generally, what is everyone doing with regard to these in the context of the Means Test?
I know that the U.S. Trustee's position is that they are part of Line 20b, which is the general housing allowance, but in the case I am working on, the taxes are high and their table is so unrealistic as to be just plain stupid.
Seeing as how I appear for lots of attorneys, I see lots of petitions, and I notice that on some, they list the property taxes on Schedule D, as a secured debt (conceivably, the county could foreclose), and then list the property taxes on Line 42 as well. I have yet to see a Trustee ever make this an issue.
So, the question is, is their inclusion in Line 20b's fixed deduction merely the U.S. Trustee's position, whereas Debtor's position is that one could include it in Line 42, or is it etched in granite that you're stuck with the Line 20b dedution, period?
Assuming the latter, I am inclined to file it anyway. The presumption will arise, and I'll have to argue special circumstances.
Obviously I'll inform the client it might not fly, and thats the risk they'll take with the fee, but honestly, that risk seems better than charging them $4,000 for a 13 that has virtually no viability whatsoever.
Todd Mannis, Esq.
The post was migrated from Yahoo.